Cream of the Crop 1/Cream of the Crop 1.iso/RELIGION/OB_91B.ARJ/12-16-91

Text File | 1992-03-03 | 211KB | 4,662 lines

Date       12-17-91 07:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Trinity

 JF> > Do you believe that Jesus is God?
 JF>  This question is really all that anyone needs to ask.
 JF> If you believe Jesus is GOD, then you *can* find supporting
 JF> scripture to back up you belief.
 JF> If you do not believe Jesus is GOD, then you *can* find
 JF> scripture to back up your belief.
 JF> YES, BOTH beliefs can be *proved* by scripture. So which one is
 JF> the truth and which is false. Yes, one is false, because Jesus
 JF> is either GOD or He isn't. He can't be both, not GOD and GOD.
 JF> Once you have established which "truth" you are going to
 JF> believe, then it is a simple step to defend your belief to those
 JF> that disagree with you. HOWEVER, it does NOT matter one single
 JF> bit what any of us believe to be correct. It only matters what
 JF> GOD has established as truth. HE will be your judge if you
 JF> happen to pick the wrong "truth" to believe in.

 Very well written.    I was just wondering though...  what kind of
 judgement do you think will be pronounced upon a person that has picked
 the wrong truth ?  Do you think that our salvation is determined by our
 belief that Jesus is or isn't God ?   What if a person is not sure or
 they have a simple faith that basically has accepted Jesus as their
 savior and did not consider this issue ?   Is a person more saved that
 has reached the right conclusion ?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-17-91 07:41:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Jesus/God

 TB >  Re-read your message while thinking about Satan's role in the
 TB> fall of >  man.  Was it God's will that Adam and Eve disobey God
 TB> and fall into >  temptation of the devil then ?

 RC> I arrive at the same tacit conclusion, that God knew what was to
 RC> happen and planned things perfectly.

 Seems you lead toward a doctrine of predestination that says God planned
 the fall ?   Why would a God of love and goodness want His children to
 suffer ?    Do you want any of your 6 children to suffer the kind of
 consequences that man has experienced since the fall ?  Of course not
 and God is probably at least as good a parent as you and me.

 The main thing you are overlooking is mentioned in Gen 6:6.  No person
 seeks something in hopes they will be disappointed or grieved by the
 outcome.  I'm sure God didn't create the world and His children with the
 goal of grief in mind.   God created His children to experience love, no
 to have them dominated by a false master.

 I am not teaching that God did not know the potential existed for His
 children to misuse love and fall. Clearly He gave them a commandment to
 obey while they were growing in order to prevent such a mistake.  If God
 had not known there was a potential for His children to fall then He
 would not have told them to abstain from procreative, sexual love.

 It is also my belief that God never had the intention to send His son
 twice.  Jesus should have been accepted after all the preparation God
 had made with the Jewish people.  God gave numerous revelations to all
 kinds of people about the arrival of Christ.  But God also knew that the
 people could possibly fall into faithlessness just as their forefathers
 did when following Moses in the wilderness.   That is the reason we find
 prediction that Jesus might be rejected.   Sending the Messiah is God's
 responsibility, but believing in him is the responsibility of fallen
 man.  We know that the people could not find faith in Jesus :

 LUK 13:34  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and
 stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered
 thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her]
 wings, and ye would not!

 MAT 27:40   And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest
 [it] in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down
 from the cross.
 MAT 27:42   He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King
 of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe
 him.
 MAR 15:30   Save thyself, and come down from the cross.


 Again I say that God knows the possibilities but that in no way implies
 that God made the plans for an outcome of man's failure.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-17-91 08:02:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Moderator?

 RC> As you are probably already aware, Mike Wallace is the official
 RC> moderator, but his node apparently has been down, and we have
 RC> been subject to a co-moderatotemporarily.

 Does this mean that you have bowed to suppression ?    Resist ye evil
 and call upon God for deliverance. <grin>

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-17-91 08:08:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    The Name

 RC> Who do you think the Angel of the Lord is?  He accepts worship.

 Oh,  you mean like the angel who gave St. John the revelation we
 sometime browse through at the end of the Bible ?

 REV 22:8    And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I
 had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel
 which shewed me these things. REV 22:9    Then saith he unto me, See
 [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the
 prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-17-91 08:11:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    THE SOUL

 RC> Good point.  When Jesus ascended he led "captives in his train."
 RC> Those in Paradise ascended to heaven.

 No, no, you got it all wrong.  Jesus opened up a realm of the spiritual
 world where single people who had faith in him could go when they died
 and be free from Satan't accusations.  Heaven is reserved for couples
 who have been blessed in marriage by God.   Yes, even Jesus has to marry
 in order to go there.  Only a marriage is in the image of God - male and
 female.  You can't get to heaven alone.

 MAR 10:6    But from the beginning of the creation God made them male
 and female. MAR 10:7    For this cause shall a man leave his father and
 mother, and cleave to his wife; MAR 10:8    And they twain shall be one
 flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.


 Traditionally, Christians have understood Heaven and Paradise to be the
 same.  However, as was already explained, the Kingdom of Heaven in the
 spirit world dwelling place of spirit persons who have attained the
 divine spirit the divine spirit level while in their physical selves on
 earth.  Although Jesus, the Messiah, came to complete the salvation of
 man, because of his death on the cross the Purpose of the Creation,
 which is fulfilled in the Kingdom of Heaven in the spirit world AND on
 earth, was not fulfilled at that time.  There has never been a person
 who achieved the divine spirit level while on earth, and therefore, the
 Kingdom of Heaven in the spirit world remains vacant -- not one person
 has entered it, since it is the divine spirit level of the spirit world.
 Why then did Jesus say that whoever believed in him would enter the
 Kingdom of Heaven?  He said that because his original purpose was to
 bring about the Kingdom of Heaven.  However, because of the
 faithlessness of the people of Israel, he died on the cross without
 realizing the Kingdom of Heaven.

 At the time Jesus was crucified, two thieves were crucified with him,
 one on his right and one on his left.  When the thief on the right
 showed that he believed in Jesus, Jesus told him that he would be with
 him in Paradise (Lk 23:43).  Paradise is the life spirit level of the
 spirit world -- the level which people believing in Jesus reach after
 leaving their physical selves.  Those in Paradise must pray for the goal
 of perfection and wait for the opening of the gates to the Kingdom of
 Heaven.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-17-91 14:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject    Trinity LIE

 CR> The reason that the Bible DOES NOT clearly teach the Trinity
 CR> doctrine is simple: It IS NOT a Bible teaching.

 The same could be said of your beliefs including receiving transfusions,
 celebrating holidays, thinking you will go to sleep when you die,
 believing only 144,000 people will go to heaven, and most likely a host
 of other stuff us outsiders never heard of.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-17-91 23:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Brian Blad
Subject      Congratulating JW'sW's

 BB> First off the Bible sets the number of the anointed in
 BB> Revelation chapter 7 to 144,000. Second the 4,100,000+ number is
 BB> the total of active kingdom proclaimers who carry the name of
 BB> Jehovah to all who have the three H's

 In other words you have opted to become a reporter rather than find the
 way to enter heaven ?   That still doesn't attract me to want to become
 a memeber.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 08:44:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject      Covenant

 PM> TB>  In reality God cannot destroy sin directly.  If God were
 PM> good TB>  and all powerful and it were up to Him, He would have
 PM> TB>  destroyed sin a long time ago.
 PM>
 PM>     God in His Mercy is allowing people more time to decide as
 PM> to     whether they will serve Him, or not.
 PM>
 PM>     Please don't mistake this delay as some fancied inability of
 PM>     God to directly destroy sin.
 PM>
 PM>     In flaming fire He will come, taking vengence, etc.     phil

 That may be the description of your daddy but not mine.   There is
 nothing merciful about the suffering people are living with today.  We
 sit here in America with such a comfortable life and either forget or
 never really know the reality of what it going on in most of the rest of
 the world.  People don't decide to serve God because they are starving
 or because their children, parents and loved ones are getting killed by
 civil wars initiated by godless people and/or drug loards.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 09:05:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Restore.6 part 2/2

 JF> In case you missed it in your reading, here is satan's sin, it's
 JF> NOT hidden to those who can read.
 JF> Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of
 JF> the morning!
 JF> [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the
 JF> nations! Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will
 JF> ascend into heaven, I
 JF> will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also
 JF> upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

 Still you didnot explain what Lucifer did.  What specific crime would
 you charge him with if you were a prosecuting atourney ?   You know
 you can't simply say "he was a bad boy" and hope for a guilty verdic.

 JF> satan's sin has nothing to do with Adam, it has everything to do
 JF> with wanting to be GOD!
 MegaMail -> Warning, Message Truncated!

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 10:03:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Chemistry

 RC> I didn't know you were a chemist.  I started out majoring in
 RC> chemistry (well,
 RC> first music, then chemistry) in college, but later changed to
 RC> business when I decided not to be a doctor.

 Chemistry was my first love.  Unfortunately the college I could afford
 did not offer a Chemistry major.  I took all their courses and when I
 got to Organic Chemistry and Quantitative Analysis I started doubting my
 faith <grin>.  Anyway I got a Biology major with Math and Chemistry
 minor and later took a job as a medical technician in a hospital
 laboratory.  The pay was minimum wages and I was on call every other
 night so being young and single it only took 2 years to burn out on such
 a minimal salary with so much responsibility.  That pretty much ended my
 career in Chemistry.  I really wanted to work in research. As you can
 tell by my theology, I am rather creative <grin>.  Well at age 25 God
 snatched me out of the world and enlisted me in the construction of the
 Kingdom of Heaven on earth.  In other words I became a salesman for the
 Lord.

 I now own and operate a moving company that I started 3 years ago.  It
 has been fairly successful and allowed me to take off 2 months last year
 and support my church's activities in Poland.  My wife went this year
 for 2 months and I will be going to RUSSIA ( or whatever the new name of
 that country is today ) in about 3 weeks.  The Unification Church had a
 few seminars there for college students last spring and those folks told
 their friends and lots more people became interested.  When we set up a
 winter seminar 6,000 students signed up.  I expect that to be quite an
 experience, especially after dealing with the hard headed folk in this
 conference for so long.   I simply can't see what it is about the Divine
 Principle that gets such strong reaction from the people Jesus wanted to
 share it with.  I do realize that people don't really know this came
 from Jesus, HOWEVER, I know that they haven't asked him.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 10:26:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Worthless Covenants

 RC> The blood of Jesus was that which was shed to ratify the New
 RC> Covenant. In any covenant, the blood of both parties is given to
 RC> seal their agreement. Now, the blood of Jesus was able to ratify
 RC> the covenant for himself and his immediate descendants.
 RC> He had no earthly descendants, so that covenant is worthless to
 RC> anyone but him, right?

 Not at all.   People still have the opportuntiy for spiritual salvation
 even though our bodies continue to be attacked by Satan.   So we are
 waiting on liberation by the Second Coming of Christ.

 Remember St. Paul ?  "Who will deliver me from this body of death ?"

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 14:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Christ.1

 TB>GEN 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the
 TB>earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
 TB>[was] only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had
 TB>made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

 WC> Sure, but the verse still does not tell us that
 WC> God MUST have man to be happy.

 I answered your question and you still don't like it. What's the
 problem ?    You know God wants to be happy and no parent can be happy
 when their children are suffering.   You just don't know God is your
 true father or understand the meaning of the parent child relationship.

 MAT 23:9    And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is
 your Father, which is in heaven.

 WC> In any case what grieved God's
 WC> heart was the wickedness. That is a long way from saying that
 WC> man's existence is necessary for God's happiness.

 You go sit by yourself in the corner till you realize you can't
 experience love in the absence of give and take action.  Love REQUIRES a
 reciprocal relationship.  God could not attain the level of intimacy
 with the angels that He wanted so He created mankind.

 WC> WC>>God is absolutely perfect. He is complete within Himself.
 WC> You WC>>cannot find a single Scripture that God desires to
 WC> experience WC>>"stimulating joy" through anyone. Such teaching
 WC> is extra-bibli- WC>>cal.
 WC> TB>LUK 15:10   Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the
 WC> presence TB>of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
 WC>    The verse speaks of the angels but says nothing of God's
 WC> emotion- al state.

 Walter, you are getting silly.  How can God's angels be happy if their
 master isn't ?  If their master was not happy, it would have been demons
 that would have shown delight.

 WC> created. WC>    The Bible speaks of no such thing as the
 WC> "Purpose of WC> Creation." Such teaching is a myth.
 WC> TB>Your God may not have had a purpose for creating you but mine
 WC> DID!    This is an evasion of the issue. I have not ever said
 WC> that Gop did not have a purpose. I said that the Bible does not
 WC> speak of such a purpose. Therefore, stating what the purpose of
 WC> creation is can be no more than speculation. Any theology based
 WC> upon such speculation is also speculation.

 All ideology is based on speculation to some degree.

 WC> WC> TB>Naturally he has a divine nature and is one in heart with
 WC> WC> God.    This is also an extra-biblical teaching. No one has
 WC> the WC> divine nature other than Jesus who was both man and God.
 WC> TB>1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not
 WC> yet TB> appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall
 WC> appear, TB>we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
 WC>    The verse does not say that we have a divine nature. It only
 WC> tells us that we will have an appearance like that of Jesus when
 WC> He appears. The verse is addressing the physical appearance that
 WC> we will have in the resurrection.

 Oh, so we will all get long hair and a Jewish nose ?   My hair is
 thinning, maybe I could live with a bigger nose if lots of hair came
 with it.   You are getting really speculative with your theology.  With
 such an imagination did you stop and wonder how we will be able to tell
 each other apart ?   The fall did not change man's physical appearance,
 why should the resurrection ?   You obviously just started typing an
 answer and totally ignored the biblical proof you were seeking.  The
 Bible mentions nothing about about changing appearances it says we will
 be "like him".   You don't have to look like someone to be like them
 and if you do look like someone then that neither means that you are
 like them.  There may be a lot of people that look like Ralph but I
 seriously doubt any of them think like him.

 Anyway if you appearance starts looking oriental, let me know and I'll
 change my belief and agree with you.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 14:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Carla Rygula
Subject      Congratulating JW'sW's

 CR> The Bible speaks of the 144,000 that will go to heaven to rule
 CR> with Christ over the earth. But there is also going to be
 CR> resurrection of both the righteousand the unrighteous, who are
 CR> going to live on earth, not in heaven. (Psalm

 How can you find happiness in a doctrine that says you won't be living
 with your Lord ?

 I don't find any numerical qualification in Jesus' words :

 JOH 14:3    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,
 and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 14:37:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    He Is Yours

 TB>ence ?  I'm expecting a renaming of O.B. to Cult_Watch #2 any day
 TB>now.  I hope the United Pentecostal Church isn't on Harvey's  cult
 TB>list.

 WC>    I noticed. However, I suspect that Mike will show up again in
 WC> the future. If a new moderator is brought on board and the
 WC> principles of the OB are not continued I suspect that most of
 WC> the people will leave.

 Judging by the volume of traffic on this echo compared with the
 cult_watch echo I would have to agree with you.

 WC> I like the echo because a particular
 WC> doctrine is not required of individuals. Everybody has to defend
 WC> their beliefs.    The UPC is on a lot of peoples' cult list.
 WC> However, that in and of itself does not make it a cult.

 Amen.  My best understand of the usage of the term 'cult' is for a
 situation where someone wants to display  a feeling immoral superior
 toward someone else.

 WC> Most
 WC> trinitarians get very dis- turbed when the weakness of the
 WC> trinitarian doctrine are pointed out.

 Watch out.  You may start getting some netmail about that. <grin>

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 14:46:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Jimmy

 WC> WC>    I do not doubt that you watched him. However, Jimmy WAS
 WC> WC> defrocked by the Assemblies of God some time ago. He is no
 WC> WC> longer a part of that organization. He represents only
 WC> himself WC> since that time.
 WC> TB>Was that due to his incorrect faith or his actions ?
 WC>    Apparently it was his actions which caused the problem. He
 WC> was unwilling to accept the restraints which the organization
 WC> placed upon him.
 WC> TB>Will faith alone guarantee someone salvation ?
 WC>    That depends upon how one defines faith. For many it means
 WC> only mental assent. Using this definition of faith then the
 WC> answer is no. Biblical faith is more than just mental assent.
 WC> That is only the first part. The second is embracing the belief
 WC> as one's own. The third step is acting upon that faith. Unless
 WC> the third step is reach the Bible says that the faith is only
 WC> dead faith.

 Well, apparently we aren't as far apart on our ideas of faith and works
 as I first thought.   I don't think you would say a person with 'dead
 faith' would be saved.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 14:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Lastdays.1

 WC> TB>You seem to think you can go to God without going throuht
 WC> Christ TB>the mediator.  Can you go to God without going through
 WC> Christ ?    Where did I say that? I can go and do go directly to
 WC> God. Jesus is also God. He is also an man.

 So Jesus created himself ?    Who made Jesus ?

 ACS 2:36    Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that
 God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and
 Christ.

 Were you born knowing Christ, or did someone bring you to Christ ?
 Be careful or lie because you know I'm looking for whoever it was that
 connected you to Christ because they were also a mediator between you
 and God.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 15:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Lastdays.2            2/

 WC>    However, you attempt to slice the cake the Scripture tells us
 WC> very clearly that Jesus came to die on the cross as a sin
 WC> offering for the whole world. Isaiah 52 is very clear that Jesus
 WC> would suffer and die.

 Isaiah 52 is very clear that this may happen but Jesus did NOT come to
 die on the cross:

 JOH 10:10 I am come that they might have life, and that they might have
           [it] more abundantly.

 The purpose of the coming of the Messiah is to restore the broken
 relationship between God and His children, thus save fallen man by
 restoring people to the state man lived in before the fall.

 Ultimately Christ will have to come again to establish a perfected
 family, society, nation and world.  In other words, fulfill the
 blessings given to Adam, BUT centered on God.   Unfortunately people
 rather believe in magic than to change.  WE must change our standard and
 seek to embody the true love of God. It is not easy and with Satan
 hanging on our coattails it is impossible unless we hang on to Christ at
 the cost of our lives.   Yes going to heaven is like getting torn
 apart. Anyone who makes it will go kicking and screaming all the way.
 We will have to hang on and it will be much like holding a rope that is
 being pulled by a truck.  We will get bruised and scratched and hurt all
 over but if we can just hang on we will get there when Christ arrives.
 Only crazy people will make it.  People who are crazy for God.

 MAT 18:8    Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off,
 and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt
 or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into
 everlasting fire.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 15:17:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Messiah.5

 WC>   Terry, I have noticed that many times in your messages that
 WC> there is a space between the last letter of a word and the "?".
 WC> I have seen this on messages others have posted also. Is that a
 WC> characteristic of the word processor being used?

 ..probably my effort to get you to slow down and think about the
 question I raised ?    It's like saying this is true, now think about
 it.   Maybe I should change it to  ".?"  ?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 15:21:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Will Hansen
Subject    Resurrection

 WH> Now, tell me how a dead man can keep the Sabbath.

 Well, I suppose they can't keep them all, but 8 or 9 out of 10 may be
 good enough to qualify for the finals.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 15:26:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Rev Moon #2

 WC> TB>Why don't you give it a shot and explain the Divine Principle
 WC> TB>teaching on the Mission of the Messiah to brother Dale?
 WC>    Well, so far I have found very little of the Divine Principle
 WC> to be based upon the Scripture. The man went to an awful lot of
 WC> trouble to write something that by and large stands in
 WC> contradiction to Scrip- ture.

 Maybe meeting Jesus made him a little crazy?

 WC> TB>You have probably read and though about this teaching more
 WC> than TB>anyone in this conference.
 WC>    I am intrigued how someone could get so far off target in at-
 WC> tempting to discover God's plan. It is all laid out in black and
 WC> white in the Scripture. Special interpretation is unnecessary.
 WC> One need only allow the words to mean what they say.

 That is the exact response the religious folk had about Jesus' message
 2,000 years ago.

 WC>    In any case in this country we are allowed to believe
 WC> whatever we chose to believe. As soon as one group can be
 WC> legally prevented from advocating their beliefs then others can
 WC> also be stopped. TB>You don't have to tell him you believe it,
 WC> just the straight TB>report.
 WC>    I doubt that my telling him to believe it would be very
 WC> convinc- ing.

 Never know.  You could trun out to be the best Moonie on the team.  You
 aren't dead yet.

 MAT 18:3    And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and
 become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of
 heaven.

 JAM 5:20    Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the
 error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a
 multitude of sins.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 15:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Rev. Moon

 WC>    Sounds like you are in for an interesting time. Watch out for
 WC> those oneness Pentecostals over there. It seems that there are
 WC> large numbers of them there. They got their start around 1917.

 Too bad they didn't save themselves 70 years of suffering and join the
 UPC revolution instead of the Bolshevik one.  Oops, I forgot the UPC is
 looking forward to the death of 2/3 of the population.  I suppose they
 didn't have much of a choice after all.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 19:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Will Hansen
Subject    Biblical accuracy  1/5

 WH> Why did He go there, and what did He do there?

 Contrary to the beliefs of the Jw's he gave a sermon to people who were
 NOT sleeping.  I'm also sure he didn't say "I'm saved ...too bad for
 you."  He gave a message of hope as he did on earth.  Clearly this
 indicates people in hell can be liberated too.   I'm sure it is easier
 to avoid hell while you are on earth than to get out once you get there.


 I would tell you more of the basic jest of what he told them but you
 most likely would not believe me.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 19:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dwain Goforth @ 914/602
Subject     Good And Evil

 DG> >  GT>  I do not accept this premiss
 DG> >  GT>  that people have a natural bent toward evil,
 DG> >
 DG> >       Oh? Wonder how many on the conference agree with you...
 DG> >
 DG> I agree with GT that people are not born evil or good.

 I suppose we could look up what Jesus said and have a basis for a more
 accurate conclusion ?

 JOH 8:38    I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do
 that which ye have seen with your father. JOH 8:39    They answered and
 said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were
 Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. JOH 8:40    But
 now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have
 heard of God: this did not Abraham. JOH 8:41    Ye do the deeds of your
 father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have
 one Father, [even] God. JOH 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your
 Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God;
 neither came I of myself, but he sent me. JOH 8:43    Why do ye not
 understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. JOH 8:44
 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will
 do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
 because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of
 his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. JOH 8:45 And because I
 tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.


 What do you get from this ?   It appears to me that Jesus was saying
 fallen man was born with a connection to the devil and thus would do
 evil because of something we inherited.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-18-91 21:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gerard Trigo
Subject    Not atheist

 GT> Please Hold replies until Jan. 9

 You need to get a laptop.  I just got a 386sx 20 mhz with 2 megs
 memory and 40 meg hd with laplink for under 11 hundred.  It's a Hundi
 btw.    I also see a good deal on the Sharp 286 12 mnz 1 meg ram and 20
 meg notebook (4.4) lbs that original sold for over 3,000. You can trade
 it for 8 of those Ben Franklins in your pocket right now.   It comes
 with a fax modem for 130.00 extra.

 This is not an ad for this stuff... but if you are moving to, from or
 around N.O. La, call...  well I don't want to give our new moderator an
 excuse to censor my messages although my moving company could use more

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-19-91 11:07:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Martin Fontenot
Subject    Jesus/God

 MF> 1,   do you think you will ever post small items that I can get
 MF> to without eyestrain? :)


 There are utilities that can help by making the characters larger than
 normal.  But you know the reason I have to be clear and give a lot of
 information is because it is much more difficult to re-educate than to
 educate.  If participants in this conference were to become as little
 children - which is by the way a qualification to enter into the kingdom
 of heaven - then I could simply write the truth without having to undo
 the damage already inflicted by religious doctrines that started with
 the wrong conclusion and sought to support it.   For example :

 The only way anyone could arrive at the conclusion that Jesus came to
 die on the cross is to start with that opinion and work backwards to
 find support.   Second, the only way a person could conclude that man
 does not play a part in his own salvation is to seek a doctrine that
 supports laziness.  Third, the only way a person could believe that
 Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God is to forget the commandment that
 warns against polytheism.    ....there are many more but I'll keep this
 message short just for you.

 MF> your use of the word <snicker> is unfortunate.

 Your point is taken.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-19-91 11:21:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jim Taylor
Subject       Moderator

 JT> Well, I'm back at last!  If I read the above correctly, Mike
 JT> Wallace seems to have disappeared, and Harvey Smith is filling
 JT> in for him.  Needless to say, Harvey is likely to turn this echo
 JT> into the same sort of zoo Cult_Watch presents, and
 JT> there are a lot of us who would be unhappy to see him replace
 JT> Mike Wallace here.

 Yes,  although Harvey has never been ugly with me personally, I have
 read his comments to and about Mormons and others who seem to have
 irritated him more than a little bit.   You can simply check the volume
 of mail on his cult_watch echo and compare it to this one and have a
 clear picture that something is wrong over there.

 JT> While I appreciate the nomination (though doubtless
 JT> tongue-in-cheek), I know
 JT> that I really don't have the amount of time necessary to be an
 JT> adequate moderatofor an echo as active as Open_Bible.

 I don't think moderating requires reading every message. A simple text
 editor can quickly scan for ugly words that are associated with flaming
 etc. and those messages could be checked.  But I understand the time
 requirements too.    Actually there is no policy for replacing a
 moderator that just disappears.  When a conference is set up the method
 of transfering/replacing moderators is set up either by election or
 appointment.  Since Mike has not officially appointed anyone I suppose
 we will have to wait and see how things sort themselves out.   I'm going
 to RUSSIA ( or whatever the name of that country is now ) on Jan. 20 and
 help staff conferences on the Diving Principle for 3 weeks.  We have
 millions... er.. thousands of students signed up to become Moonies..
 er.. to hear the Divine Principal seminars.   Maybe this conference will
 sort itself out by the time I get back.  I really hope it doesn't turn
 into cult_watch #2 though.  I've already been forced to quit the RIME
 Bible conference because my doctrine was censored.   Well at least I can
 understand Jesus :

 LUK 9:58    And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the
 air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his] head.


 JT>  I, too, would like to nominate Robert Gurley. There would be no
      problems, in his case, with FidoNet, since he is the sole sysop on
      his BBS, whereas I'm only second sysop on Coffee House.  If it
      weren't for that silly rule, I'd nominate Doug Palmer!  <grin>

 I think Harvey believes he already has the job.  He continues to post
 the rules and sign them saying to send him netmail in case of an
 infraction.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-19-91 11:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Richard Salisbury
Subject    Moderator?

 RS> Yes, I am another Latter-Day Saint, another one of "Mormons".....
 TB> I'm a Moonie
 RS> Awesome!  I don't believe I've ever met anyone of your
 RS> conviction... mind filling me in on the basics of your faith?

      I suppose I can just hit a few of the high notes that tend to
 distinguish our beliefs ( the truth <grin>) from the lost sheep who have
 been duped by the snake.  I should start with a disclaimer to let all
 who may read this message know that my belief is not the official voice
 of the Unification Church...
      I believe God began the creation with a clear purpose and goal to
 accomplish.  He wanted to create mankind to embody His personality,
 character and nature as much as possible so the potential for a
 relationship of love would be equal to a parent child relationship. In
 order for that possibility to exist, He had to give us freedom. Freedom
 does not come without responsibility.  This is important to understand
 so we don't fall into the trap of thinking God has total control to do
 whatever He wishes.  In other words God set up the rules that say He
 can't intervene with man's portion of responsibility.
      What is man's responsibility ?   We look to Gen 1:28 to find the
 only goals God gave man before the fall.  1. Be fruitful...  this means
 to mature.  2. Multiply... once Adam and Eve became mature they were to
 have children   3. Take dominion of the creation.
      In order to help man mature God gave one commandment to Adam and
 Eve that said "do not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and
 evil."    The meaning of abstaining from eating the fruit is associated
 with reproductive love as a fruit is associated with the reproductive
 part of a plant.  So Adam and Eve were told to avoid sexual love and a
 sexual relationship.  This commandment was much like we tell out
 children when they are young.  We encourage them to remain pure until
 they are old enough to marry and be responsible parents.   Likewise God
 did not want an immature couple parenting His grand children.
      So God's goal for His children was for them to mature and give Him
 grand children.  Since this did not happen, God's goal remains
 unchanged.  He still wants grand children.  So you can see we strongly
 disagree with the fundamental concept that the mission of Jesus was to
 die on the cross.  The mission of Jesus was to mature, marry and
 establish an ideal family, procreating more sinless children ...God's
 grand children.
      Since Jesus was murdered by faithless people who cooperated with
 Satan, Christ must come again IN THE FLESH and establish the long
 awaited family of God ...which will expand to the levels of society,
 nation, world... which will be the realization of the kingdom of heaven
 on earth.
      Let's examine what went wrong at the fall: First we have an angel
 who had the #1 job for a long time while God was creating the universe.
 Everything was fine then.  But when God's children came on the scene,
 the angel, Lucifer, compared the love he was getting as a servant to the
 love God was giving His children.  When he compared master-servant love
 to parent-child love he felt God was loving his less.  In order to
 compensate for the love he felt he had lost, he went to Eve and seduced
 her.  Lucifer, a masculine angel, was more attracted to Eve and wanted
 to take Adam's position as her husband in hopes of gaining the parental
 love of God. In other words, Lucifer wanted to become a child of God so
 he left his proper position.  When Eve united with Lucifer she became
 infected with shame and guilt. Naturally she saw Adam was still pure and
 thought that by uniting with Adam she would regain her purity. So she
 seduced Adam.  Instead of purifying Eve, Adam became infected with the
 same feelings and they both gained the knowledge of sexual love, EXCEPT
 in this premature state it was impure, self-centered and fallen love.
      What went wrong when God sent Jesus ? First most Christians will
 say nothing went wrong because God had planned all along to send the
 messiah twice... once to be killed and again to gatherer up the saved.
 However, this is a mistake.  Jesus had the authority and power on earth
 to forgive sins.  Jesus was also the most qualified man that had ever
 lived to take the position as husband and father.  So why didn't he? The
 problem of faithlessness of the chosen people created an opportunity for
 Satan to attack Jesus and kill him.  Why were such prepared people
 unable to recognize and protect the long awaited messiah?  The answer
 lies in the failure of John the Baptist.  John was in a position to make
 straight the way of the lord, but John did not follow Jesus.  When John
 went his own way, the foundation God had prepared through John was lost.
 And to top that off, John denied that he was Elijah while Jesus said
 that John was Elijah. John had a reputation that lead many people to
 even suspect he was the Christ while Jesus had the reputation of a being
 a drunkard and a glutton, friend of tax collector and harlot, who worked
 miracles by the power of the devil.   Give such a reputation, people
 naturally though Jesus was lying when he said John was Elijah in order
 to prop up his claims as the messiah. Anyway Jesus came to his own and
 they did not not receive him.  But if they had, Jesus would have
 restored a woman to be his bride and the true mother of mankind.  With
 Jesus and his bride established as the true parents of mankind, the
 faithful followers of Christ could be adopted into God's lineage.  If
 Jesus gave the blessing of marriage to them, it would have been ok with
 God.  So the children of Peter, Paul, etc would have been born in God's
 lineage, just like the children of Jesus and his bride.
      First remember that sinless children grow up to become messiah's...
 then you can easily see why Satan was so anxious to enter Judas and kill
 Jesus before he could marry and procreate sinless children.  What would
 Satan do if he had to deal with 10 or 20 messiah's ?  The answer is RUN!
 Let's also remember that sinless children are born right the first time,
 so they have no need for a messiah and rebirth and all the business
 fallen children like you and I have to deal with in order to attain
 salvation.   Sinless children also have the potential to grow up to
 become perfect.  That is next to impossible for fallen children.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-19-91 12:48:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Tim Of_angle
Subject     New Moderator

 TO> RC> to happen, I don't know what I can do.
 TO> Ignore Harvey Smith's posturing as "co-moderator". If he wants
 TO> to post the echo rules, that is a useful service; if he tries to
 TO> exclude someone from the echo, or criticize someone for their
 TO> posts as "co-moderator", we scream at him (and, if
 TO> necessary, at other people) until he quits.

 Or #3... insulate him.  <grin>

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-19-91 12:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Restore.3 part 2/2

 PM>     OK, everybody, here's another text demanding more comments.
 PM>     What is the beast?
 PM>     What is an image to the beast?   (or of the beast?)
 PM>     Come one, come all.              phil

 The beast was the godless ideology of Communism... materialism... which
 is all but defeated in a few spots...  So does that tell you anything
 about the schedule for the last days ?

 I suppose there are those who still think it was a mere coincidence the
 Berlin wall just fell and the USSR has dumped their ideology and even
 invited religious people to come and teach them about their
 understanding of God?  But I don't believe these things happened without
 a cause.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-19-91 12:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Trinity

 JF>    It really doesn't matter what "I" think, read the book, it
 JF> DOES have the answers..

 Well, in that case you don't need to post any more messages.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-19-91 22:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Jesus/God

 JF>  I guess you only read the parts of the Bible that you can twist
 JF> into agreeingwith moon's ideas. I guess when scripture says one
 JF> thing and moon says another, you simply ignore what the Bible says..

 Have you always had trouble expressing yourself in a positive and
 pleasant way ?   Even if you can never understand my belief, you should
 be able to read your own messages and see that accusing me of 'twisting
 scripture and only reading one part in order to agree with moon's ideas"
 is not going to gain you any respect.   I would venture to bet you even
 capitalize the S in Satan. Why won't you give my pastor as much respect?

 JF>  I asked you once before, Are your children sinless?

 I don't want to answerer you because you aren't nice to me.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-19-91 22:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Brian Blad
Subject     Trinity LIE

 CR> The reason that the Bible DOES NOT clearly teach the Trinity
 CR> doctrine is simple: It IS NOT a Bible teaching.
 TB> The same could be said of your beliefs including receiving
 TB>transfusions, celebrating holidays, thinking you will go to sleep
 when TB> you die, believing only 144,000 people will go to heaven, and
 most TB> likely a host of other stuff us outsiders never heard of.

 Terry,

 BB> While those some of those things are not specifically named in
 BB> the scriptures
 BB> there are direct precedents that support our beliefs in those
 BB> areas. Also the histories of the first century which talk about
 BB> the Christians show clearly that they did not practice Holidays,
 BB> Birthdays, Eating of Blood and others that "us outsiders never
 BB> heard of" As for the 144,000 only going to heaven there are many
 BB> scriptures that prove this.

 First, I agree with your teaching that Jesus is not God.  I don't think
 he was floating around somewhere before his birth either.  I know God
 had the ideal of a perfect person and that ideal preceded Jesus birth.
 As for the other beliefs I mentioned, I don't find any reason to be
 worried about the consumption of blood and neither do Jw's who eat meat.
 As for the idea of sleeping when you die, there is volumes of scriptures
 that discuss the activities of people in the spiritual world. I simply
 don't think they were sleep walking.

 Finally as 'proof' that heaven is not limited to 144,000 we should base
 our evaluation upon Jesus' words as much as possible.  ( You know, the
 ones in red in some Bibles <grin> )

 When we read :

 JOH 14:3    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,
 and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

 ...there is no hint of any mathematical qualification.

 Why do you suppose the first 144,000 Jw's will get front row seats ?
 Maybe they will, but I find it difficult to believe in a pyramid scheme
 of salvation where the top folk get the blessing and those down the line
 get less.  I wonder if your founding fathers read this :

 MAT 18:1    At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who
 is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little
 child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say
 unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye
 shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall
 humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom
 of heaven.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-20-91 08:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rich Cowan
Subject    Bible Interpretation!

 RC> As I sat here reading these posts this morn I got the impression
 RC> that maybe this is the wrong echo, what I mean is there seems to
 RC> be much disagreement to what Christianity is and what the means
 RC> of interpretating the scriptures is.

 Yes, Christ's body is in sad shape. No wonder evil is doing so well.

 RC> So with that in mind as a start the listed princviples will
 RC> hopefully clear up any questions and help us all to better
 RC> understand the difficult passages
 RC> in God's word.
 RC> 1.  Always remember that the Bible is God's infallible,
 RC> inerrantly inspired word.  There are no mistakes in the Bible.
 RC> God has included everything He wants us to know concerning
 RC> Christian life and salvation.

 Well you started off with some grave errors.  How can you say God has
 included everything He wants us to know concerning salvation when the
 scripture tells us in John 16:25 that Jesus said, "'I have said this to
 you in figures; the hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you
 in figures but tell you plainly of the Father.'"  In John 16:12,13 we
 read that he also said, "'I have yet many things to say to you, but you
 cannot bear them now.  When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you
 into all truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever
 he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are
 to come.'"  And in Revelation 10:11 we read, "'You must again prophesy
 about many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.'"  Each of these
 passages indicates that in the Last Days a new expression of the truth
 will be given.

 As for mistakes.... well you can get Ralph Stokes to clear that up for
 you.   According to him only the KJV is correct.

 RC> 5.  Interpret according to the correct meaning of words,  You
 RC> can find the correct menaing of a word in several ways.  First
 RC> look it up the usage of teh word in other parts of teh Bible to
 RC> find how it was used in that generation.Another
 RC> way is to look up its background or its root.  You could do this
 RC> with a dictionary.  Still other ways are to look up the
 RC> synonyms-words that are similar in meaning but spelled
 RC> differently.  For example: Prayer, Intercession,
 RC> Supplication.

 With this in mind, will you tell me what the tree of life represents?

 RC> 6.  Interpret the Bible also according to all the parallel
 RC> passages that deal with the subject, and according to the
 RC> message of teh entire Bible. The more you read teh Bible, the
 RC> more you will understand that in it God is revealing His way
 RC> of salvation to men from beginning to end.  And when you come to
 RC> a difficult
 RC> passage, think of it in the light of teh overall purpose of teh
 RC> Bible.  For ex: the animal sacrafices of teh Old testament are
 RC> meant to be a picture of teh perfect
 RC> sacrafice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

 The only way you could reach that conclusion is to first believe Jesus
 came to die and then work backwards from that assumption.

 RC> I for one follow these rules and believe me they help.

 I'm sure you are sincere, and I'm also sure you will discover these same
 rules lead the Jw's, Mormons, Pentecostals, Moonies and others to reject
 the notion of the trinity while trinitarians are also following the same
 rules.  And that is just one issue.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-20-91 08:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jason Steck
Subject    Biblical Interpretation

 JS>  My opinion is that the Bible is certainly
 JS> inspired, but is not word-for-word inerrant doctrine.

 That is correct in my opinion also.

 JS> BC> If one party of the debate believes otherwise, or that there
 JS> are OTHER BC> scriptures that are inspired Words of God, then
 JS> right there, we have a
 JS> BC> strike against the interpretation he presents.  Since the
 JS> Bible BC> distinctly claims divine inspiration and also
 JS> adamantly prohibits BC> adding or subtracting thereto, then a
 JS> person who adheres to an BC> organization that opposes that, is
 JS> not being led by the Holy Ghost in BC> the matters of discerning
 JS> truth.
 JS> Let's cover this quick because it could be a major issue of
 JS> contention. First, the Bible has never claimed to be the SOLE
 JS> record of the totality of God's words to the human race.  This
 JS> is because the books of the Bible were not compiled into
 JS> present form until the intervention of man-made councils long
 JS> after the original writings.  The modern-day Bible is a man-made
 JS> compilation of whatever> writings those councils felt were relevant
 JS> and politically/doctrinally correct.
 JS> Secondly, regarding the prohibition against adding to or taking
 JS> away.  You are, no doubt, referring to the passage in
 JS> Revelations.  Trouble is, the passage can only be referring to
 JS> the BOOK OF REVELATIONS ONLY.  It cannot be referring to the
 JS> entire Bible.  The simple reason is that the Bible did not exist
 JS> yet as a single book when the passage was written!  Secondly,
 JS> many of the letters and books in the New Testament were written
 JS> AFTER the scripture in Revelations!
 JS> To take the definition
 JS> of that passage used to deny the possibility of other writings
 JS> requires that you ALSO be willing to throw out about 1/3 of the
 JS> New Testament in addition

 Correct again.  I somehow get the feeling Bill doesn't know much about
 the history of the councils and the process through the modern Bible
 came into existence.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-20-91 18:05:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Biblical accuracy  1/5

 JF> ...Jesus did not go to hell to preach to sould that were lost.
 JF> The Bible says clearly He went to a prison place to preach to
 JF> spirits. He did not go to hell, "Sheol" (Hebrew word), one of
 JF> the five divisions of the underworld.
 JF> He went to a prison
 JF> in the Greek called "Tartarus," a prison place for angels.

 You are making this up ( or someone already made it up for you ) to fit
 your theology.


 JF> These spirits in verse 19...,are not human beings, they are
 JF> spirits, or angels. Christ went to preach to angels.

 Why do you think God is more concerned about His servants than His
 children.  Your theology clearly tells me you have no idea of the true
 heart of God.

 JOH 3:16     For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten
 Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
 everlasting life. JOH 3:17    For God sent not his Son into the world to
 condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 JF> >  I would tell you more of the basic jest of what he told them
 JF> but you >  most likely would not believe me.

 JF>  Probably not, but go ahead anyway.

 I fear you are insincere, and just waiting to 'jump' me.  I really doubt
 you would agree even if I quoted your message and sent it back.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-20-91 18:15:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Good And Evil

 JF> >  What do you get from this ?   It appears to me that Jesus was
 JF> saying >  fallen man was born with a connection to the devil and
 JF> thus would do >  evil because of something we inherited.
 JF>  There is a 1000 year period that satan is bound from
 JF> influencing man that GOD uses to prove that it is man's nature,
 JF> and not satan that makes man sin.
 JF> It's important to understand the nature of sin, to understand
 JF> what the Bible  teaches. I think that is why you don't understand
 JF> why man fell and why satan
 JF> was kicked out of heaven. You place the fall on unscriptural
 JF> ideas and not on the Word of GOD.

 Well, I have the NEW word of God that was delivered through Jesus Christ
 to my minister Rev. Sun Myung Moon about 50 years ago. You are no
 different from the Jewish folk who said Jesus didn't know what he was
 talking about.   There is nothing unscriptural about saying that Satan
 seduced Eve and when she in turn seduced Adam they were ashamed of their
 nakedness. The Bible does not say they did not fornicate.   Wake up and
 realize that sin is inside us.  We don't seek something to covet, we
 covet what we see everyday. We covet what is near to us.  That desire to
 possess something we don't have is the cause of sin.  What is it that we
 want at the price of our life that we don't already have ?   Is it
 money, sex, power ?   No, those things are incidental.  We want love.
 That is what Lucifer wanted and he thought he could get it from uniting
 with Eve in a sexual relationship.   If Christ does not come and restore
 sexual love, mankind will only continue to procreate a sinful race.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-20-91 18:29:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Restore.6 part 2/2

 JF> >  MegaMail -> Warning, Message Truncated!
 JF>   I point the above out to you again, you need to be careful how
 JF> long your messages are, they are getting cut off.
 JF>   However, I it is a real blessing from GOD that they are..

 You are obviously spoiled and have always had your way.  You seem to
 find delight in treating me with disrespect.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-20-91 18:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Trinity

 JF> but you are also helping me, yes, strange as it may seem, I find
 JF> myself reading more of the Bible because of your messages. Not
 JF> reading more of the Bible, reading the Bible more. Anyway, I
 JF> think 100% of your "ideas" are wrong,

 Believe it or not, that IS good :

 REV 3:15    I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I
 would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and
 neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 It keeps you in the mouth of the Lord.

 JF> and reading your
 JF> messages and finding the proof in the Bible that they are wrong
 JF> is bringing me to a better understanding of the Word of GOD.
 JF> I consider it my job to bring you the message of Jesus, it's up
 JF> to the Holy Spirit to convict you and bring you to Christ Jesus.
 JF> So I will continue
 JF> doing my part as long as the Holy Spirit directs me to.

 Good... keep reading every one of my messages.  I have the latest
 revelation from God and you could become one of the lucky ones that
 understand it.

 JOH 16:25   These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the
 time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I
 shall shew you plainly of the Father.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-20-91 22:04:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Vail Rodney
Subject    BRAINWASHING

 VR> TG> The woman knew what she was getting
 VR> TG> into, and could back out at any time.  I do not call that
 VR> TG> brainwashing.
 VR> TB>
 VR> TB> Great reply !
 VR> How does TG know the woman knew what she was getting into? Maybe
 VR> she didn't.

 VR> People can be fooled and deceived, can't they?

 Yes, old men send young men to die in war every day.

 VR> In a case such as this, I think a brain "washing" would be
 VR> appropriate. If you don't wash it from time to time, it may
 VR> decay and rot with bad ideas.

 Sure, folks can be duped.  A fool and his money soon part.  But when one
 religious group starts saying another group is brainwashed, they really
 mean the other group is more dedicated to their cause, thus the first
 group feels judged.   The common use of the term "brainwashed" is
 nothing more than a grown up term for 'teacher's pet' and other such
 labels we called those who were doing what we knew we should be doing.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 09:20:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Brian Blad
Subject       Congratulating JW'JW's

 BB> There is no way into heaven for any but the 144,000. The rest of
 BB> us will live on the earth which will be restored to the paradise
 BB> that it was intended to be.

 It was Jesus intention to establish the kingdom of God on earth. Christ
 will not live up, over, or out in some place called heaven.  In other
 words If 144,000 leave the earth they won't be going with Christ because
 Christ will live on earth.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 09:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dale Robertson
Subject    Mr. Moon

 DR>   Why don't you tell me Terry about Mr. Moon's Divine Principle?
 DR> I am glad I finally found out about this,but it had to happen
 DR> indirectly. If it comes from Moon it is not divine by any
 DR> stretch of the imagination.

 The Divine Principle was given to Rev. Moon by Jesus Christ Easter
 Sunday, 1935.  If you want to call this coming from Rev. Moon, you may
 as well say the 10 commandments came from Moses.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 09:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Resurrection

 PM> TB>  Well, I suppose they can't keep them all, but 8 or 9 out of
 PM> 10 TB>  may be good enough to qualify for the finals.
 PM>
 PM>     Surely you jest, Terry.

 Yes I jest.  It does surprise me that someone recognized it.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 09:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Daniel Osborn
Subject    Trinity Lie

 DO> Mr. Moon is a great talker. He has convinced many persons that
 DO> he is other than what he is: a sinful human. He cannot change
 DO> the Bible. That is what we believe. You should read what is said
 DO> in Psalms 146:3&4.

 How quickly you forgot your own faith was started by a human with many
 interpretations different from traditional beliefs.  Everyone outside
 your faith says your doctrine has sought to change the Bible.   So we
 have a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  Rev. Moon did not seek
 to change the Bible no more than Rev. Russel did.  They both wanted
 believers to understand the correct interpretation as they saw it.

 I think Mr. Russel was correct in helping people understand that Jesus
 was a man.  If you had understood the meaning of this you would be in a
 better position to find the Messiah who was born at the time Mr. Russel
 predicted.  You should see the revelation given Mr. Russel was much like
 the revelations that preceded Jesus birth.  Rev. Moon should have found
 the JW faith prepared and ready to support him. I only have one thing to
 ask you :

 MAT 11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes
 concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed
 shaken with the wind?

 Why did God raise up your faith at this time in history.  Why did He
 give YOU prophecy that the messiah would come in 1914 ?   And why do you
 think Christ is a man ?   It is really a shame that ALMOST finding the
 Messiah is not going to help you or your descendants.

 Everyone laughed at the first disciples of your faith for believing the
 Messiah was coming in 1914 and everyone laughed again when your parents
 predicted armageddon was coming in 1971.  They are still laughing but
 when the truth is known they won't laugh any more. And neither will you
 if you miss the boat.   If I had expected the Messiah to come in my
 lifetime, I would check out everyone who remotely suggested they were
 coming to fulfill the mission of Christ -  9 ways to Sunday. You, my
 friend, have not done that.  I will make your search easy for you and
 simply tell you that he IS the one.  If you start your quest by
 prayerfully asking God who is Rev. Moon, you will save yourself a lot of
 time.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 10:08:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Worthless Covenants

 PM>     Satan is really after our spirit (read soul), and uses our
 PM>     bodies to "get at" us.  Ideally, the body is to be under the
 PM>     control of the mind, which in turn is to be under the
 PM>     control of the Holy Spirit.

 Right, so if Satan cannot control us through out physical bodies then he
 will never get out soul.  We have to discipline our bodies and over come
 the physical desires for food, sleep, and sex.  Those are the ways Satan
 invades and eventually comes to "get at" us.

 PM> TB>  St. Paul?  "Who will deliver me from this body of death?"

 PM>     Who, Moon?                phil

 Mat 27:11

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 12:16:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steve Klemetti
Subject    1 MILLION < 144,000

 CR> Over 4 million is a samall amount in comparison to Christendom.

 SK> We never had a "magic number".  We never believed that Jehovah's
 SK> Witnesses as God's people were limited to 144K.  The 144K is
 SK> those who are anointed with holy spirit and are bought from the
 SK> earth to go to heaven to rule as kings and priests with Christ.
 SK> Revelation 7 then describes a great crowd that will survive the
 SK> great tribulation.  The "membership" is not already filled.

 I thought 4 million was a larger number than 144,000.  I thought the
 144 k would be filled from the 4 million ?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 12:20:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> >  I find it hard to believe God would keep such a secret from
 RC> his chosen >  people.  Why can't you find even one Jew who
 RC> expects Christ to come >  twice ?
 RC> You are more than a little confused here.
 RC> Jesus was a Jew.  The apostles all were.  The 3000 on Pentecost,
 RC> the 5000 shortly thereafter, etc.
 RC> All of them were looking eagerly for the "Day of the LORD."

 That's what I said.  They are looking eagerly for the "Day of the LORD"
 and there is no expectation in the Jewish faith of that day coming twice
 as it is described by Christianity.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 12:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> The New Covenant was sealed with the blood of Jesus.
 RC> How could the New Covenant be in existence if there were no
 RC> blood to ratify it?

 God doesn't need innocent bloodshed to satisfy some requirement
 like the pagan sacrifice of a virgin.  Your description of God is more
 like Dracula.  God NEEDS NO blood sacrifice to save mankind.  God is
 more powerful than you think.   He can even use the blood inside the
 veins of Christ to save mankind.

 RC> Do you remember the terms of the covenant?  It was to the
 RC> descendants of Jesus.  If Jesus had none, his covenant is
 RC> worthless to everyone except himself.Who are the descendants of
 RC> Jesus?

 There were none. Satan helped the faithless people kill him.  That is
 why Christ must come again.  Didn't I cover this with you before ?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 12:29:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> I wasn't criticizing you in advance, I just wanted to know how
 RC> one was supposed to receive this blessing.
 RC> Besides, Reverend Moon is not really a toothless idiot, is he?

 No, but people hold the same kind of opinion of Rev. Moon as they did of
 Jesus.   But even though people believed Jesus was a drunkard and a
 glutton, doing the will of the devil, it did not change the fact that he
 was a man of God.

 I think you need to realize that if people living at Moses' time wanted
 to do the will of God they had no choice but to follow Moses.

 If people living at Jesus time wanted to do the will of God they had no
 choice but to follow Jesus.  They chose NOT to do the will of God and
 and MURDERED Jesus instead ...contrary to the will of God.

 You can ignore Rev. Moon's teachings if you wish but you will not be
 doing the will of God.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 12:37:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 TB > Are you hinting that God created His children in such a way
 TB> that as long  as they had flesh they would automatically sin ?

 RC> No, on both counts.  They were created perfect, and fell.  As a
 RC> result of the fall, all men and women are born with the sin
 RC> nature, or lack of God's life in the blood.

 You are correct. Now tell me how this 'sin nature' can be removed so we
 no longer procreate children with it.  Surely God must have a plan. Do
 you know that plan ?   Rev 19:9 has a clue.

 RC> The only way one could ever be without the sin nature was to
 RC> take God's nature.
 RC> That's why God made it available to all.

 How can I have children born with God's nature instead of 'sin nature' ?

 TB> Besides a woman named Mary once had a son who had a physical body
 TB> and he did not inherit her sin nature.

 RC> That's because the "life is in the blood," which is determined
 RC> by the father.

 I don't think God is so weak that He can't work through a man too.
 Please examine your logic and see if you can identify the fault that I
 can recognize.

 p.s.  I thought you said you had studied to become a doctor.  Surely you
 learned enough about biology to KNOW that the inherited genetic traits
 of children come from the mother as well as the father.   Why would you
 then make the erroneous assumption that only the father contributes to
 the spiritual traits of a child ?   Don't you see you are starting with
 a preconceived idea that Jesus was sinless because you think his mother
 was a virgin, and then worked backwards to reach your conclusion that
 sin comes from the father ?   I have had enough correspondences with you
 to know that without a doubt you are intelligent. You can understand
 what I'm telling you even if you don't want to believe it.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 12:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 TB> So you agree that God is not making the decision and man needs
 TB> some  preparation in order to understand and make such a decision.

 RC> No.  I said man needs to make one decision, not a preparation.

 How can anyone make a correct decision that carries the weight of their
 eternal salvation without preparation.  That is the reason the way to
 hell is so wide.  Without preparation, any person will always choose
 immediate gratification rather than the discipline a religious life
 demands.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 14:19:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 TB>  So if Jesus' father was indeed Zacharias that would mean that

 RC>  I think you mean Joseph.

 No, Joseph was not the high priest who overshadowed Marry.  Whose house
 did she go to in haste when she received the revelation that she the
 most high would overshadow her and she would be mother of the Lord ?

 TB> Do you see why I find it hard to believe that God formulated a
 TB> plan that depended on Satan to fulfill a mission?

 RC> No.

 Well, let me back up and explain something to you.  When God first put
 His children on the earth the archangel Lucifer had the mission to raise
 them up... kinda like a nanny.  When Lucifer grew jealous of the love
 God was giving to Adam and Eve he left his position and sought to take
 Eve as his wife.  This was the spiritual fall.  At that point Lucifer
 became Satan and he fell from heaven ( his original position ).   When
 you study scripture you will se one pattern emerge.  That pattern is
 that once a person fails, God will choose someone else to take their
 mission.  We say this principle when Adam failed.  God sought to
 establish a new foundation with Adams children, Cain and Abel, rather
 than asking Adam to make an offering.  When Moses failed and twice
 struck the rock of horeb at Rephidim, God chose Joshua to lead the
 people into Canaan and Moses died without ever setting foot in the
 promise land.   The list goes on to include the selection of Matthias
 when Judas failed.  This principal began when Lucifer failed and the
 angel Michael replaced him as the archangel. ( Jude 1:9 ).

 When you understand this principle you will know that God will never use
 Satan to fulfill HIS will.

 TB> Let me get back to my point...  sinless children need no blood
 TB> sacrifice. They are born right the first time.

 RC> Of those, we know of only two: Adam and Jesus.  The former was
 RC> the one who brought sin to ALL men; the latter the one who
 RC> brought salvation.

 It was not God's plan that Adam fail, in fact it grieved God. It was not
 God's plan that the chosen people were faithless.  That resulted in the
 need for Christ to come again. Had Jesus fathered children they would
 have been sinless.  When Christ returns and we celebrate the Marriage
 of the Lamb, Christ will father many sinless children.  That will happen
 in the last days because the last days are the last days of evil.  Evil
 will be destroyed by true love and the truth I have been sharing with
 you.

 RC> Not at all.  One of the differences I've found between what you
 RC> believe and what I do, is that I believe what the bible says,
 RC> even if at first it seems not to make sense.  The bible says
 RC> quite clearly that without the shedding of blood there
 RC> is no remission of sin.  Why don't you believe the bible in its
 RC> entirety?

 Ok, suppose I accept this, we still find an example Isaac not having to
 spill his blood. Can't you see God is not limited by your interpretation
 of scripture ?

 You quoted lots of scripture to support your view but you still don't
 understand that Jesus Christ had the power on earth to forgive sins.

 Why don't you pray about this ?  Ask God if it was necessary for Jesus
 to die or did Jesus in fact have the authority to establish a sinless
 family and lay the foundation for the kingdom of heaven on earth to
 expand through sinless children.

 I believe you are sincerely trying to understand the truth.  I also
 believe if you fast and pray for 3 days you will get an answer.  I
 challenge you to do that.  Your eternal life is worth it.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 14:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Jesus/God

 RC> He could have done all kinds of things (which is what you always
 RC> bring up: what *could* have been), but chose one perfect way --
 RC> one death would substitutefor all others.  One suffered so that
 RC> others would not have to.

 I give you credit for understanding the principle of restoration through
 indemnity, however you have failed to understand there are three kinds
 of indemnity.  Lesser than, greater than, and equal.  Had the chosen
 people believed in and excepted Jesus as the Messiah, lesser indemnity
 would have been adequate.


▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 15:07:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Jesus/God

 RC> I experienced the Asssemblies of God early on (3-5 years old),
 RC> went to Baptist
 RC> Sunday School, became a confirmed Catholic at age 12, and was
 RC> saved by Jesus
 RC> Christ at age 25 (eleven years ago).  I received the baptism of
 RC> the Holy Spirit shortly
 RC> after I was saved.  A year after I was saved I left the Catholic
 RC> Church because I was fed up with the "traditions of men" that
 RC> Jesus spoke of, and I had a hunger to learn the word of God from
 RC> people who knew it.  The Catholics,as a rule, have
 RC> little interest in the bible -- it interferes with tradition.
 RC> I went to a full-time christian bible school for a year after
 RC> college.

 Quite a religious background... No wonder I had such difficulty in
 figuring you out. You know enough about different belief's to be a real
 asset in bringing unity to the body of Christ.  Did you know we are
 still taking applications ? We need people like you.

 RC> It takes time to renew one's mind.  The older you are when
 RC> saved, the longer it takes. And, many never do much serious study.

 How true.  This is the only conference a person can pick up a Bible and
 read a few scriptures and present themselves as an authority the same
 day.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 15:24:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    The Name

 TB> Who do you think the Angel of the Lord is?
 RC> He accepts worship.

 TB> Oh,  you mean like the angel who gave St. John the revelation
 TB> we sometime browse through at the end of the Bible ?

 RC> Sounds like the Angel of the LORD is also the God of Abraham,
 RC> the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

 RC> Who would you say he is?  (he asked again)

 There are many angels of the Lord.  1/3 of the angels did not fall from
 heaven.  They stayed with Michael to serve God.   One of them made it
 clear that angels were not to accept worship :


 REV 19:10   And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me,
 See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that
 have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is
 the spirit of prophecy.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 15:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    THE SOUL

 TB> No, no, you got it all wrong.  Jesus opened up a realm of the
     spiritual world where single people who had faith in him could go
     when they died and be free from Satan's accusations.  Heaven is
     reserved for couples who have been blessed in marriage by God.
     Yes, even Jesus has to marry in order > to go there.  Only a
     marriage is in the image of God - male and female. You can't get
     to heaven alone.

 RC> Quit joking around.

 I'm serious as a heart attack about this.  Jesus clearly told us :

 MAR 10:6    But from the beginning of the creation God made them male
 and female.  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and
 cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are
 no more twain, but one flesh.

 Paradice is the highest a single person can go.   Wait till you find out
 more about marriage from the lastest information recorded in the Dead
 Sea Scrolls. It will support this even more.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 16:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dwain Goforth @ 914/602
Subject     Good And Evil

 DG>  But we were also born with a connection to God, who is assumed
 DG> to be good.  And since we have no capacity to judge, we don't
 DG> know if something is good or evil or neither.
 DG>  I personally don't believe in evil.

 That's nice but it kinda makes it impossible to do as we are instructed:

 ROM 12:21   Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 21:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    GOOD AND EVIL

 JF> Whether you believe it or not, there is a *very* large difference
 JF> between a NT Christian not believing another Gospel and a OT Jew not
 JF> believing in Christ Jesus.

 Whether you believe it or not, there in no difference between what you
 are doing and what the people did when Christ came 2,000 years ago.

 In fact, Jesus warned us this may happen at the second coming:

 LUK 18:8    I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless
 when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

 JF> You seem to pass over the scriptures that say your "ideas" are
 JF> completely wrong. satan has no need for Love, he is a lier and the
 JF> father of it. he wouldn't know how to love if he really wanted to.
 JF> What satan wanted was to be above GOD, to be GOD, to be worshiped as
 JF> GOD.

 There is no scriptural support for your claim that Satan has no desire
 for love.  In fact I can show you the third temptation where Satan
 asked Jesus to worship him as clear evidence that Satan wanted love.
 There is nothing in the creation that does not respond to love.

 JF> A new Heaven and a new Earth will be formed and *ONLY* those that
 JF> are saved will populate this new Heaven on Earth. These people
 JF> *will* be sinless. If it is GOD's desire that these people marry and
 JF> have children, the children *will* also be sinless

 These people will be like Mary who parented a sinless child in spite of
 her own sin. When Christ returns the people who have faith in him will
 be granted the blessing of marriage and their children will also be
 sinless. You are correct to look to the last days with the expectation
 of many sinless children coming into this world.

 JF> (however, I find no proof in the Bible that there will be physical
 JF> love(sex) in this new Earth).

 Do you believe there is something about sexual love that makes it
 impossible to be purified ? You seem to believe in a rather weak God who
 cannot restore sexual love through Christ.∙When the marriage of the
 Lamb takes place do you think that sexual love between Christ and his
 Bride will make them sinners ?∙I would bet you have never considered
 this.  It probably never occurred to you that Christ may marry a real
 woman and establish an ideal family of God.  That is the way salvation
 will come.∙At the fall man lost truth and true love.  Through Christ
 and his bride the true love of God will be a reality to fallen man.
 Since we were created to seek and respond to love, when we find the true
 love of God we will realize fallen love so tasteful and more.  Once you
 taste true love you will be just as crazy as me.  But most importantly
 you will know that the false love fallen man has been limited to (as a
 result of being with out true parents ) will NEVER disappear from the
 earth. True love will conquer false love and...

 ISA 35:1∙The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for
 them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall
 blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of
 Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon,
 they shall see the glory of the LORD, [and] the excellency of our God.

 JF> Your goals of a sinless world *will* be achieved, but *not* by
 JF> anything we do for ourselves, but by GOD and HIS Grace toward us.

 Everything God did since the fall included the cooperation of men.
 Everyone who has benefited by the grace of God made some condition. Do
 you think you will be allowed to eat the fruit of the tree of life if
 you are impure ?

 REV 2:7 ∙He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto
 the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of
 life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 22:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Chemistry

 TB>  Anyway I got a Biology major with Math and Chemistry minor.

 RC> So why don't you participate in the threads on evolution, etc.?

 I don't really know why but I find the evolution <=> creationism
 arguments tooooo boring to read.

 TB> I now own and operate a moving company that I started 3 years ago.
 TB> It has been fairly successful and allowed me to take off 2 months
 TB> last year and  support my church's activities in Poland.

 RC> So tell me how to start and run a similar company.  I could use
 RC> the money to pay for a couple of failed businesses.

 Well this is probably a good way to get our new and improved self
 appointed moderator to kick us both out of Open Bible  so I'll throw in
 a few "thus saith the Lord's"  to make my comments appear Biblical.

 First, if you don't love physical labor then you need not read any
 farther. I happen to be very athletic and love to sweat so I still enjoy
 work most of the time.  Like any job it can get boring and some
 customers do make me want to pull out the few strands of red hair I have
 left.

 As any business the first thing you need is goals.  Any business can
 share the same first two goals:  1. Get business   2. Get more business.

 According to Divine Principle...

 I got started because I had a friend with 6 trucks that were just
 sitting in storage and he asked me to help him figure a way to get them
 rolling.  You know you don't make any money if the wheels don't go
 round.  Well, I came up with the idea to start calling everyone in the
 news paper who had listed their house for sale by owner.  Since I had
 done so much fund rasing, even with product like hair combs with those
 little flowers and other such stuff that people were even less
 interested in, it was very easy to call folks on the phone and simply
 say that I noticed they were selling their house and wanted to know if
 they would allow me to make a bid on moving their furniture when the
 time came for them to leave.   I would say that almost 90% responded
 yes.  Everyone wants as many bids as possible when they are spending a
 lot of money.  And I figured that moving most likely rated 3rd place for
 the largest amount of money most people spend at a single time... only
 surpassed by buying a house and a car.   Thus saith the Lord. <grin>

 Many of the people who were selling their houses were moving locally and
 I could use my friend's trucks for that.  But the good money comes when
 folks spend several thousand dollars to move long distance.  When those
 moves would come up, I called a trucking company that I had arrangements
 with and got their rate for running 28 foot trailer to the city the
 folks were moving to.  Then I simply added 400 bucks to that price and
 arranged for the truck to bring the trailer to the location the people
 were leaving from.  Believe me, this price was even better than renting
 a truck most of the time and the amount of space and weight it could
 hold is 1/3 more than the largest rental truck you can get.  It was a
 super deal for many families with 3 bed room houses.  I simply went out
 the day of the move and collected the money, left the customer to pack
 their furniture and stopped by to pay the trucking company on my way
 home.  I was getting 2 or 3 of these moves a month. Then I started to
 offer additional services like packing the truck for them and even
 calling a moving company where they were going and arranging a crew to
 come out and unload them when they arrived.  That not only made extra
 profit but also got extra business that self service would have lost.

 Well that is the way to start.  I once prepared a booklet about 15 to 20
 pages long about the details including regulations and other legal
 requirements.  If you are serious and have a strong back I can look for
 a copy and send it to you.  It is tough to compete with the big
 companies that have lots of advertising bucks but if you get to the
 customer first you can get the business before the big companies have a
 chance.  It's kinda like beating a great football team because they
 didn't know when or where the game was being played.   I find all
 business much like athletic competition.  You first analyze your
 competitor's strengths and weaknesses and you use their weaknesses to
 your advantage and avoid competing with their strengths.  When we moved
 to New Orleans and started here with our own truck, my wife and I called
 every local moving company and asked them a list of questions.  If you
 are not sure about your prices or you have grandma answer the phone, it
 is difficult for people to have confidence in your business.  The phone
 is like an egg, either momma bird or daddy bird has to be sitting on it.
 The next call could generate several thousand dollars if someone is
 there to pick it up.  Also when you are selling always listen to the
 customer for a tip on exactly what they are most concerned about.  If
 they are worried you will be late or you don't have enough padding, deal
 with that concern and don't waste time telling them about your pretty
 truck.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 23:44:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jason Steck
Subject    INTERFAITH Echo

 JS> The four moderators are:
 JS>
 JS> Name                            Religious Classification
 JS> <unfilled>                      Catholic/Orthodox Apostolic
 JS> Christian Chris Anderson
 JS> Protestant/fundementalist Christian   (1:104/114@FidoNet)
 JS> Jason Steck                     (Neo-)Restorationist Christian
 JS>   (1:104/424@FidoNet) (200:5000/400@MetroNet)
 JS> Tom Kristensen                  Pagan/Wiccan Faiths
 JS>   (1:104/429@FidoNet)

 Sounds like a fun place for Moonies, Mormons, Jw's, Pentecostals ( and
 anyone else whose faith doesn't go back over 400 years ) to hang out.
 I think what is needed is a new conference geared toward the newer
 revelations and Biblical interpretations.   Then the fundamentalist
 could tune in and find out what God is doing these days when they get
 tired of reading yesterday's news.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 23:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Jesus/God

 RC> You are confusing "sins" with "nature."  You are born with the
 RC> sin nature.

 Now you are using UPC terminology if I'm not mistaken.  How many hats do
 you have ?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-21-91 23:53:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Worthless Covenants

 TB>  Not at all.   People still have the opportuntiy for spiritual
 TB> > salvation
 TB> >  even though our bodies continue to be attacked by Satan.   So
 TB> we are >  waiting on liberation by the Second Coming of Christ.
 TB> >  Remember St. Paul ?  "Who will deliver me from this body of
 RC> death ?" Remember the context?  The first seven chapters of
 RC> Romans outline the problem
 RC> -- the remainder explains God's solution.

 Well it must be in some kind of code that no one has been able to crack
 because I don't know of any sinless children who came after Jesus until
 about a year after the Marriage of the Lamb took place.


Date       12-22-91 11:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Doug Macfarlane
Subject    How About "gays"?

 DM> Yeah, but don't you think what people do in the privacy of their
 DM> own house is their business and not yours?

 So you are saying as long a homosexuals stay in the closet everything in
 find ?    Isn't the same philosophy of Archie Bunker ?

 Since homosexuals can't reproduce that leaves them to recruit. There is
 simply no way to recruit from within a closet.  No matter how good the
 idea of letting people do what ever they want in the privacy of their
 own house may sound, you can't eliminate sin by hiding it.  Even though
 we know Adam and Eve thought they could !

 First:

 GEN 2:25    And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not
             ashamed.

 Then after they sinned

 GEN 3:7     And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that
             they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and
             made themselves aprons.
 GEN 3:10    And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was
             afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 11:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Don Peters
Subject    Moderator?

 DP> Since so many people have false doctrines, and I agree with him
 DP> on that, a lot of people have felt attacked after joining his
 DP> echo for a while. But hey, if a doctrine is false a person
 DP> SHOULD be critized for it. What matters most importantly is
 DP> doctrine, not style.

 Well we know he hasn't called you Satan... yet.

 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not
 charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And
 though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and
 all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove
 mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all
 my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and
 have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, [and]
 is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed
 up,

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 11:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Chris Stamper
Subject     Mormonism

 CS> I carry 4 of the 6 echoes Harvey carries, in addition to OB, on
 CS> my system. I have yet to see any hint of what you are claiming.
 CS> From what I have seem of him, Harvey is a very fair and
 CS> intelligent man.   Also, he is closely connected with
 CS> Mike W., so the claim that Harvey's usurping the echo dosen't
 CS> hold water. What has this guy done that angers you so?

 Let's examine the facts.  He said Mike appointed him co-sysop.  Then he
 said he did not know if Mike was coming back to moderate this echo
 again.  Now if he really had talked to Mike he should have more
 information than that.  Unfortunately this network mail is much like
 Billy Bob's circus.  In case you didn't see the movie, the jest of the
 story is that you can be whatever you want to be.  I can claim that I am
 the newly appointed moderator and it would be just as valid as Harvey's
 claim.  I can even sign on any bbs under the name Mike Wallace and enter
 a message saying that I appointed Terry Blount the new moderator.

 I have seen messages where Harvey was most disrespectful toward Mormons.
 If anyone wants to be moderated by Harvey they can pick up his
 cult_watch conference.   However you won't find me there because the
 common usage of the term 'cult' denotes immoral superiority... just
 like other bigots use terms like 'Niger, Spick and Gook.'

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 17:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Biblical accuracy  1

 PM> TB>
 PM> TB>  Contrary to the beliefs of the Jw's he gave a sermon to
 PM> people TB>  who were NOT sleeping.
 PM>
 PM>     Read the text ever so much more carefully.  It does not say
 PM>     that at all.   It refers to what the Holy Spirit was doing
 PM>     at that time.

 I told you that you wouldn't believe me...

 JOH 3:12    If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how
 shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 17:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject      Good And Evil

 PM>     I hate to say it, but Terry and I more or less agree on
 PM>     this one.       (ROTFL)        phil

 Well you can be righ once and a while... but be careful least folks
 think I have found my first convert. <grin>

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 17:32:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Mike Wallace
Subject    REQUIRED READING ALL PART

 MW> Effective immediately, the posting of the Open Bible House
 MW> Rules will be resumed on an every-other-day basis.  For
 MW> those of you who have never seen them, I would suggest that
 MW> you do not post again until you have read them carefully.

 Are you going to be doing the posting/moderating or have you really
 handed this conference to Harvey ?  You most likely know that many long
 time users of this conference don't want to see ideas censored...
 especially those of minority groups.  If we want limited freedom of
 expression we can pick up other conferences.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 17:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3             1/

 TB>Then when Christ lives out his life on earth and goes into the
 TB>spiritual world you become God's direct child on earth till it
 TB>your turn to pass the baton to your children and go to the spirit-
 TB>ual world yourself.

 WC>    It don't work quite that way.

 Well, I'm glad I'm not an elder in your church... seems I wouldn't get
 much respect.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 17:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3             1/

 WC>    There is no baton to pass onto children. Each individual must
 WC> find his own salvation. It is an impossibility for a parent to
 WC> pass salvation on to the children. The best they can EVER do is
 WC> to leave them with the knowledge of the plan of salvation and
 WC> train them up correctly in the ways of the Lord.

 DEU 11:19   And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when
 thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou
 liest down, and when thou risest up.

 PRO 17:6    Children's children [are] the crown of old men; and the
 glory of children [are] their fathers.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 17:48:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3             1/

 WC>    That's all fine and good, Terry, but the Bride of Christ is
 WC> not an individual. It is symbolic language showing the future
 WC> relationship of Jesus with ALL His redeemed.

 Why do you seek a different intrepretation that what it says ?
 According to you that is a sign of reading something into scripture to
 fit one's own theology.

 Bride is Bride,  You don't like it so you went hunting for an
 alternative to change it.   I think you called it Extra-Biblical.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 17:52:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3             2/

 TB>So we don't have to obey God's commandments?
 WC>    Yes, we must obey God. However, the Bible is very clear that
 WC> no individual can earn salvation. It is a gift of God. A gift is
 WC> free or else it is not a gift.

 You may not have to earn your salvation but incorrect behavior can
 surely cause you to lose it.   So in the end the cheap grace you are
 preaching will not promise your salvation.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 17:59:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3             2/

 WC>    The Bible has a lot to say about salvation. However, it does
 WC> not contain any of the theology you have been posting.

 Wait a sec.  You have found nothing correct in my doctrine even after
 reading it for over a year ?  I can't believe we have nothing in common.
 Do you believe man is in need of salvation ?   I do too !

 TB>Your doctrine makes it so easy to be saved that it eliminates the
 TB>concept of the way being narrow.

 WC>    It is very easy, Terry. There is nothing hard about it. It is
 WC> the flase doctrines loose in the world that make it complicated.
 WC> There is nothing hard or complicated about repentance. Neither
 WC> is there about baptism and the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

 Get serious. You aren't going to easily convince me Jesus was wrong when
 he said:

 MAT 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and
 broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which
 go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way,
 which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


 WC>    There is no disagreement at all, Terry. The redeemed will be
 WC> removed from the earth before the wrath comes. Those who remain
 WC> will not be redeemed. They can be redeemed by faith which leads
 WC> them to not take the mark of the beast or deny God.

 You simply don't know the true meaning of removing people from the
 earth. This happened before you know :

 JOH 15:19   If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but
 because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
 therefore the world hateth you.

 TB>I simply don't believe your faith has ignored the concept of
 TB>people winning victory over evil.

 WC>    It hasn't ignored the concept. Jesus has already won the
 WC> victory. We have only to enter into that victory. God is also
 WC> Jehovah-nissi--The LORD our banner (i.e., victory). Jesus is
 WC> Jehovah God. It is very simple. It is all in Him.

 This is smiple nonsense.  You know you have to take up your cross and
 follow.  You forgot that following Christ once would cost your your
 life.  Since that is no longer the case you seem to think Satan has
 given up.  Satan simply isn't going to let you stroll over to God. You
 have to deal with your own sin nature and gain personal victory or you
 have not taken up your cross.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 18:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3             2/

 TB>Well Communism, a false ideology based on the lie that there is no
 TB>God has already claimed the life of 500 million people in your
 TB>(and the messiah's ) own lifetime.

 WC>    Your number may be a little high. In the early 1970s the
 WC> figure was in the neighborhood of 200 million for the Russians
 WC> and the Chi- nese.

 I show you the destruction you claim will come has already come and you
 reply that the death of 200 million people isn't enough to satisfy your
 requirement.  You are confused... AND blood thirsty.

 TB>Isn't that enough to satisfy your requirement for war and blood
 TB>shed?

 WC>    The number of people killed in the past is immaterial. The
 WC> Bible says that destruction will come during the seven years of
 WC> tribulation. It is a future event.

 You don't know this prophecy has been fulfilled.  I don't know why you
 are so 'locked into' that %85 figure but you are confused... AND wrong.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 18:17:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3             3/

 WC>    The only truth that Jesus Christ delivered to Moon was the
 WC> words of the Bible.

 Jesus MUST know more than you.  He must also know more than you think he
 knows.   You should try believing what he said :

 JOH 16:25   These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the
 time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I
 shall shew you plainly of the Father.

 WC>    This is correct, Terry. This event happens after Jesus
 WC> returns and destroys the 200,000,000 man army gathered to
 WC> prevent Him from setting up His 1000 year kingdom.

 You just told me in you last message that the atheistic ideology of
 materialistic communism has killed 200 million people. And now you say
 you are still waiting on exactly that same number of people to be
 destroyed.   Why can't you figure out the time you are living in ? ? ?
 Here are your words from the last message :

      WC>    Your number may be a little high. In the early 1970s the
      WC> figure was in the neighborhood of 200 million for the Russians
      WC> and the Chi- nese.

 Don't run away from that question.  Again I want to know why you can't
 understand the time you are living in ?   God has shown you many signs,
 but:

 MAT 16:3    And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for
 the sky is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face
 of the sky; but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times?

 Aren't you a weather man ?   How ironic !  What will it take to wake you
 from your sleep?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 18:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.6             1/

 TB>Walter, you are sliding off the deep end... you are showing panic
 TB>in desperation.  You know that the position of archangel was taken
 TB>by Michael when Lucifer fell.

 WC>    No, Terry. There are no Scripture which tells us that Michael
 WC> took the position of Lucifer when he fell.

 JDE 1:9     Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he
             disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against
             him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 21:39:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Patrick Wilson
Subject    Covenant 3

 PW>    God created Man to operate in an arena of FREE WILL.  If He
 PW> wanted just to have 'yes men' He would have obviously done so.
 PW> Therefore, IT IS up to man to cooperate in order to be saved.
 PW> As He said, 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock.
 PW> If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and
 PW> eat with him, and He with me.' (REV 3:20 NIV)  God is a
 PW> gentleman, He never forces Himself on anyone.  Check it out,
 PW> you might really learn something.

 You sent this message to the wrong person... unless you wanted an AMEN !
 This is exactly the message I have been sending out on this network for
 over 2 years.

 You should repost it to Rick Carrol or Walter Coupes or just wait till
 the  "saved by grace no matter what you do" crowd jumps on your case.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 21:46:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Brian Blad
Subject      Trinity LIE

 BB> or 144,000. If everyone goes to heaven then who do the kings and
 BB> priests rule over?

 I feel I need to hold you up here and correct what I detect to be a
 misunderstanding of the meaning of "to rule over."  Jesus came to rule
 and will return to rule with a rod of iron, however EVERY person that
 has been employed by God followed the same pattern as Jesus followed by
 sacrificing himself for others. To be chosen to rule means to be chosen
 to give up everything you have for those who love you the least. You see
 the difference between the tradition of fallen men and the tradition of
 holy men ?   Fallen man always love those closer to him at the expense
 of those farther away. The way to become a saint is exactly the
 opposite.  You must sacrifice yourself, your parents, your spouse, your
 children, your relatives, your home town, your state, your nation and
 EVERYTHING that belongs to you for those who love you less.  That is
 exactly the reason America is in decline. God raised up America and
 blessed us so we could be THE shining light for the world to see. REV
 21:23   And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to
 shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the
 light thereof. REV 21:24   And the nations of them which are saved shall
 walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory
 and honour into it.

 But what have we done?  We abandoned the founding spirit of our
 forefathers who gave birth to this nation on their knees in prayer. We
 have done as a harlot who sells herself for pleasure and become drunk on
 the blood of the saints.  The time has come for the American people to
 be awakened.  A revival is overdue.  If we betray our ancestors we
 betray God and there is only one way America will go.  It will go to
 destruction.  America was built on the pillars of faith in God, if God
 is not restored to American life we will be without support and decline
 rapidly.

 We must humbly realize that the blessings of God came to America with
 the purpose of making it possible for God to use this nation as His
 instrument in saving the world.

 BB> How does the kingdom of Daniel 2:44 get established if all the
 BB> subjects are in heaven, when Daniel wrote that it would be an
 BB> earthly kingdom?

 Daniel 2:24 does not say anyone will be in heaven, it says "God of
 heaven."  There is no place in outer space that is heaven.  God
 originally intended for the kingdom of heaven to be realized on earth.
 So when Jesus came he prayed "thy kingdom come thy will be done on
 earth."    To oversimplify, the kingdom of heaven will be established on
 earth and the 144,000 will be here too.  This is not like having a
 business with the home office in Cleveland.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-23-91 07:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jason Steck
Subject    Interfaith Echo

 JS> The conference is intended to be a fun place for everyone
 JS> interested in religiouexchange to hang out.  Are you indicating
 JS> that you would like to link in?
 JS> It is not available on any backbone, but I will deliver the
 JS> conference to a certain
 JS> number of systems.

 I'm interested but I'm also going to the USSR in about 3 weeks and will
 be ther for a while.  I'll look into it when I get back.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-23-91 12:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    144,000

 JF>     It seems that Rev 14:1 is speaking about the Jews in Rev
 JF> 7:3-7:8 that are given a free ride to heaven. After all, *they*
 JF> are GOD's chosen people, do you really think that he is going to
 JF> break his word to them and just save us Christians?

 Have you taken a serious look at the parable of the vineyard ?

 It concludes with Jesus saying :

 MAT 21:43   Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken
 from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 And we can know Jesus was talking about Israel as a result of the
 immediate response :

 MAT 21:45   And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his
 parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to
 lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a
 prophet.


 This tells me that the Jewish people clearly lost the favored position
 they once had.  But that is not to say that Christians will keep the
 blessing they have inherited.  We know Jesus himself clearly said that
 Christ may not find faith when he returns.  ( Luke 18:8 )

 In the ideal world we will be liberated from sin both on the physical
 and spiritual levels, under the actual guidance of God as our parent.
 The Lord must come again in the flesh to accomplish his mission of
 saving the physical world.  If he comes on the clouds of Heaven,
 spiritually, he cannot accomplish his mission of restoring the whole
 world both on the spiritual and physical levels.  The problem is the sin
 and corruption of this world, and not of heaven.

 How will the Lord come at the second advent? The position of Christians
 exactly parallels the position of the elders, scribes and priests at the
 time of Jesus.  In those days, the people were waiting for Elijah and
 the Messiah to arrive on the clouds of heaven. Why did the people think
 this way? Why did they hold this kind of belief?

 They were simply following the Bible prophecy written down in Daniel
 7:13: 'I say in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven
 there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and
 was presented before him."  Because of the great prophet Daniel, the
 people of Israel had every reason to expect the arrival of the Messiah
 with the clouds of heaven.  Christians are expecting the arrival of the
 Lord in the same way today, from the clouds of heaven.

 John said "...many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will
 not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is
 the deceiver and the antichrist."  (II John 7 )    The Bible says that
 many people were denying the appearance of Jesus Christ in the flesh.
 And John condemned those people as the antichrists.

 The people 2,000 years ago expected the Lord's arrival on the clouds of
 heaven; so when Jesus appeared in the flesh it was very difficult to
 accept him.  So at that time, there were arguments among Jesus'
 disciples and the faithful of Israel. So how could they accept Jesus. On
 what grounds? Those who believed the letter of the Old Testament and not
 the spirit, missed the whole thing.  Then how will the Lord appear in
 the last days?  We are in a situation exactly parallel to that of the
 time of Jesus Christ.  If we become slaves to the letter or the New
 Testament, instead of free in the spirit of the New Testament, we will
 commit the same crime which the elders, scribes, pharisees committed
 2,000  years ago.

 What should we believe? Should we chose the belief that is most
 convenient for us?

 I am testifying to you that the Lord cannot appear in the stratosphere.
 The mission of the Messiah is a physical, realistic one. He must come to
 the most miserable nation and lift the human status from the slave
 position, to the servant position, to the adopted child position and to
 the direct child position by physically putting together the Kingdom of
 Heaven here on earth.  That is the mission of the Messiah.

 The Bible says, do not just believe anybody. Jesus said, "He who has
 ears to hear, let him hear."  He was not referring to the physical sense
 organs.  When you use your spiritual senses and listen for the Word of
 God, you will find His direction and guidance. But it is not easy to
 become a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven. It is very difficult for a
 foreigner just to become a citizen of the United States.  How much more
 difficult it is to remove ourselves from our corrupt life and transfer
 ourselves into citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-23-91 13:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jerry Brenneman
Subject    KJV

 JB>    I have a question then, for you Ralph.  If the KJV is the
 JB> only "pure" word of God, as you say it is, how come you don't
 JB> answer your posts in KJV English?
 JB>    What really troubles me is that you're a Christian and so am
 JB> I, yet we seem to be fighting each other instead of working to
 JB> promote the Gospel, all because you apparently refuse to listen
 JB> to anyone who doesn't abide by the KJV.  Ralph,
 JB> that's really sad.  There are a lot of people out there who
 JB> desperately need to hear the Gospel message but if all they see
 JB> are Christians arguing over which translation of the Bible is
 JB> best, I dare say we'll drive more people away then we will
 JB> bring in.  And I cannot possibly believe that will bring honor
 JB> to the Lord. Just something for you to think about.

 I have to admit this is the most well written, talented, and rational
 message I have seen anyone write to Ralph.  I seriously doubt you will
 get a reply with equal quality.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-23-91 13:38:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Chris Stamper
Subject     New Moderator

 CS> Why does everybody (esp. you) dislike the guy?

 I don't dislike him.  I just prefer he continue to moderate his own
 conference and leave this one alone.   If ever I decide I want a
 religion that is based on finding falts with other people's belief's
 I'll pick up cult_watch.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-23-91 13:42:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steve Klemetti
Subject    Whatever?

 SK> Terry, In four paragraphs, you explain more about Cain and Abel
 SK> then you do about Jacob and Esau.  Then you go into some
 SK> explaination that is far more involved and complex than need be.

 So you didn't like it ?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-23-91 13:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steve Klemetti
Subject    Whatever?

 SK> Jehovah God is the one who determines what who shall have mercy
 SK> and who shall not.

 JOH 5:22    For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all
 judgment unto the Son:

 Is that short and simple enough for you ?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 19:28:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject      Restore.3 part 2/2

 PM>    Yes, it does.  But I feel the beast existed LONG before
 PM> Communism.
 PM>    So, what is the beast?    What is the image to it?     phil

 Materialism.  It has existed since the fall.  The fall of man marked the
 beginning of selfinshess. Since fallen man wasts to possess everything
 in the creation for his own selfish purpose, we have seen many images of
 this beast.   I think the hammer and syckle it the current image.  But
 it will be replaced by the dollar sign, pound sign, and yen sign etc.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 19:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     Trinity Lie

 PM>    It doesn't.   But someplace it says God asked Adam to protect
 PM>                  Eve from spiritual error, hence she was
 PM> inferior                  in that respect.             phil

 Not that I doubt you, but could you show me where?  I scanned for
 protect in the KJV and it does not exist.   The only form of the word
 that did exist was protection and it was used only once, with no
 association to Adam or Eve.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-23-91 14:36:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Daniel Osborn
Subject    Trinity Lie

 DO> himself to be greater than Jesus. We all accept what that
 DO> foremost of all men said at John 15:18 If the world hates you,
 DO> you know that it has hated me before it hated you.

 So now we are playing who hates who the most ?   Looks like I'm ahead in
 that game, I don't see much love in your comments :

      DO>  Although Russell made some mistakes too,
      DO> he never claimed to be greater
      DO> than Jesus, WOW! What arrogance.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-22-91 19:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject     what?

 PM>    It certainly is not.  Jesus came in fallen flesh, yet did not
 PM> sin.
 PM>    (Had to be fallen, sinful flesh, for He represented us
 PM> PERFECTLY)

 Incorrect. If Christ represented us perfectly he would have been
 imprefect. But Christ was perfect.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-23-91 19:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         John Fordenbacher
Subject    Restore.3

 JF>     What you are saying is that Christ has returned and he is
 JF> moon.

 Give this man a cigar !

 JF> Since you have been with moon, does his hands and feet
 JF> show signs of the nails of the cross, or is his side pierced?
 JF> Does he bleed when cut.  The real Christ Jesus, still has the
 JF> holes in His hands and feet and side. Jesus also has no blood
 JF> running through His veins, it was placed on the alter
 JF> of GOD to pay for our sins.

 How will the Second Coming of Christ take place?  In considering this,
 let us first look at the second coming of Elijah.  In fact, the second
 coming of Elijah is the clearest example that God has given us related
 to how Christ will come again.

 Through the prophet Malachi, God promised to send Elijah again, before
 the coming of the Messiah (Mal 4:5).  So Israelites of that time who
 were waiting for the Messiah were actually waiting for the second coming
 of Elijah, because he was to precede the Messiah.  Because the second
 coming of Elijah was to be the return of the Elijah who had ascended
 into heaven, the people believed that Elijah would surely descend from
 heaven.  Yet, Jesus clearly declared that John the Baptist, who was born
 on earth, was Elijah (Mt 11:14; 17:13). However, that the second coming
 of Elijah took place through John the Baptist does not mean that Elijah,
 himself, was born again as John the Baptist.  Elijah was in the spirit
 world, helping John the Baptist, who was on earth, since John was born
 with the same mission (Lk 1:17). So, although the mission was the same,
 the person was different.

 Through this lesson learned from the second coming of Elijah, we can
 understand that the Second Coming might possible take place by the
 Lord's being born on earth.  We can also understand that though at the
 Second Coming, the Lord, as the Messiah, will have the same mission as
 Jesus, he may not have the same appearance as Jesus (Jn 14:16,17; 16:12;
 Rev 19:12; 2:17).

 In the Old Testament, we find two contradictory prophecies concerning
 the coming of the Messiah.  In Daniel 7:13, we find the prophecy that
 the Lord would come on the clouds:  "I saw in the night visions, and
 behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man..."
 However, the prophet Micah prophesied that the Messiah would be born in
 Bethlehem (Mic 5:2).  Which of these contradictory prophecies did the
 Israelites believe?

 Knowing the influence of the two prophets Daniel and Micah on the
 Israelites, and knowing that the Israelites had great faith in God, we
 know that they were waiting for the Messiah to come from heaven.

 It was for this reason that even after the crucifixion of Jesus, an
 anti-Christian movement arose saying that Jesus could not have been the
 Messiah because he was born in the flesh on earth.This can be understood
 in the warning by the apostle John:  "For many deceivers have gone out
 into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ
 in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the anti- christ"


 JF>  Please check out your christ and see if he is the same one
 JF> Bible speaks of. If he truns out to be the same, I'll sign up
 JF> right now.

 Rev. Moon isn't Jesus, but you can sign up anyway. I need some help in
 this conference.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-23-91 20:14:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.6

 WC>    You are correct, John. The divine principles are based almost
 WC> entirely upon extra-biblical revelation and interpretation. In
 WC> of the first rules to check for demonic activity is to cross
 WC> check what is said against what the Bible says. It there is a
 WC> contradiction then it is not of God. Moon certainly violated
 WC> this rule when he was visited by "Jesus" and given all the
 WC> information.

 Walter, you need professional help.  You know Jesus did not come and
 simply reteach the laws of Moses. That did not make Jesus message
 demonic. The people said he was drawing on the power of the devil now
 you go and ignore their failure and make the same mistake.  You are
 going to get a real surprise when you find out you are the one duped by
 the devil.   And that is not the worse part. You are really bringing
 unimaginable sorrow to your savior, Jesus Christ.  Please stop it. I
 don't want Jesus to suffer any longer.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-23-91 22:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Vail Rodney
Subject    BRAINWASHING

 VR> TB> Sure, folks can be duped.  A fool and his money soon part.
 VR> But when
 VR> TB> one religious group starts saying another group is
 VR> brainwashed, they TB> really mean the other group is more
 VR> dedicated to their cause, thus the TB> first group feels judged.
 VR> The common use of the term "brainwashed" is TB> nothing more
 VR> than a grown up term for 'teacher's pet' and other such TB>
 VR> labels we called those who were doing what we knew we should be
 VR> doing. I'll buy that. Speaking of labels, here are a few you
 VR> might be interested in that have changed in meaning over the
 VR> years.                Human Reasoning
 VR> Right and Wrong
 VR> Right and Repressed
 VR> Right and Not Mentally Healthy
 VR> Right and Liberated
 VR> Self Indugence has become Self Fulfillment
 VR> Living in Sin has become a Meaningful Relationship
 VR> Discipline has become Unhealthy Repression

 How true !  You will never hear anyone saying "I'll teach you to sin."
 Instead they say "Let me show you something interesting, exciting,
 intriguing, new and everyone it doing it."   Satan works incognito, and
 most effectively in the all-persuasive "spirit of the times."

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-24-91 14:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Christ.1

 WC> TB>You know God wants to be happy and no parent can be happy
 WC> when TB>their children are suffering.
 WC>    You are assuming that God is human. This is incorrect.


 No, I'm asssuming Man inherited God's characteristics.  That IS
 corrrect.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-24-91 14:13:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Christ.1

 WC> Neither can you KNOW that God cannot be happy as a result of
 WC> something He created did. There is no Scriptural basis for such
 WC> a belief.

 God would no more create something to make Him unhappy than you would
 enter a message in hopes of getting deprssed.

 TB>You just don't know God is your true father or understand the
 TB>meaning of the parent child relationship.

 WC>    Again this is an assumption on your part because I do not
 WC> agree with your position that God MUST have humans to be happy.

 I realize that. You don't understand how happiness is achieved.  Love
 cannot exist outside a relationship of give and take action.  God
 therefore NEEDS someone/something in HIS image in order to experience
 the greatest degree of happiness.

 WC> TB>You go sit by yourself in the corner till you realize you
 WC> can't TB>experience love in the absence of give and take action.
 WC> Love RE- TB>QUIRES a reciprocal relationship.
 WC>    No quite true. Agape love does not require a reciprocal
 WC> relation- ship.

 You would commit suicide if "agape" love was the only love you could
 receive. You would be most miserable. You were created to seek active
 love and experience it.

 WC> TB>God could not attain the level of intimacy with the angels
 WC> that He TB>wanted so He created mankind.

 WC>    This is not scriptural. The Bible does not say any such thing
 WC> anywhere. It is another extra-biblical belief.

 Get real.  Man was created in the image of God. Angels were created as
 "ministering spirits", this is NOT the image of God.

 TB>Walter, you are getting silly.  How can God's angels be happy if
 TB>their master isn't? If their master was not happy, it would have
 TB>been demons that would have shown delight.


 WC>    How do you know that God's angels cannot be happy if God is
 WC> not? How do you KNOW that God is ever unhappy? God is not human.
 WC> He created humans just as He did everything else that exists.

 Not quite.∙God created humans in HIS own image and likeness. You have
 never understood what that means.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-24-91 14:22:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Lastdays.1

 WC> TB>So Jesus created himself? Who made Jesus?
 WC>    I will answer your question when you answer mine. Who made
 WC> God?

 God wasn't born.

 1JO 5:1     Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:

 But you can see Jesus was.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-24-91 14:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Lastdays.1

 WC>    Certainly the human flesh of Jesus was crucified. However,
 WC> His deity did not die on the cross or at any other time.

 There is this 2 god polytheistic philosophy you keep talking about.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-24-91 14:26:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3             1/

 WC> woman and father children. The passage from Revelation does not
 WC> ad- dress such a concept. It is rather symbolic of Jesus and His
 WC> relation- ship with the church.

 Says who.  You are making this claim, not God or scripture.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-24-91 16:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3             2/

 WC> TB>You know you have to take up your cross and follow.
 WC>    However taking up our cross and following Jesus does not earn
 WC> us salvation. Salvation is a gift. If it can be earned it is not
 WC> a gift but wages for work preformed.

 I agree !

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 09:37:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Bible Interpretation!

 RC> That's not true.  None of the disciples believed that Jesus came
 RC> to die,

 Wonder why ?  It was because he DIDN"T !

 RC> but all were led to that conclusion, first by Christ

 Oh no.. no.. They NEVER believed that Christ came to die.  They
 understood the situation as it unfolded and saw that the faithlessness
 of the chosen people made it inevitable.  They knew and believed what
 they heard Christ telling everyone... "to do the will of God you MUST
 follow me."   There was never a hint of Jesus saying please kill me.


 RC> Christians do not work backwards from the resurrection, they
 RC> work forwards.

 There is no other way anyone could reach the conclusion that the MURDER
 of an innocent man was a good thing.  This conclusion that Jesus came to
 fulfill the final animal sacrifice is wrong.  Jesus Christ had the power
 on earth to forgive sins and issued NO rain check when he did it.


 I know you can't understand me because you don't understand the purpose
 of creation.  God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful, multiply, and take
 dominion.  This was the same purpose for which Jesus came into the
 world. Yet he was MURDERED by faithless people who did not understand he
 was the King if Kings.  He should have had a queen and royal children.
 There was never a man in history who was more qualified to be a father
 and a husband than Jesus Christ.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 09:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Bible Interpretation!

 ]RC> Again, that's just not true.  Pentecostals believe in the
 RC> Trinity -- I am a pentecostal full-gospel fundamentalist.  The
 RC> Mormons and JW's, and yes, the Moonies, all use extra-biblical
 RC> reasoning to support their doctrines, for the simple reason
 RC> that the bible does not support them.
 RC> That's why the Mormons have their Book of Mormon; the JW's their
 RC> Watchtower Society; and your group the Divine Principle.  I
 RC> don't say that in a demeaning
 RC> way, just noting that those whose doctrines are not biblical
 RC> require their own separate teachings.

 Your faith has its own separate teachings too.

 You seem to think that extra-biblical material is a sin ?  But you
 should know that every faith has "their book"  that explains "The Book"

 Ralph is the only believer I have met who ONLY reads from the Bible...
 and look how confused he is.  He reached the conclusion that slavery and
 naziism is ok with God.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 10:17:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject        Covenant

 PM>     perfecting themselves?   like salvation by man's works?
 PM> phil

 Do you think man's perfection is up to God alone ?   There would be no
 need for you and I to make any attempt to obey the commandments unless
 we shared responsibility.

 I would think such an idea is a really clever plot of someone who wants
 to keep man living in sin.  Who would tell you that your perfection is
 up to God alone...  so no matter what you do it doesn't make any
 difference.   This concept has NO hint of discipline.  However you will
 find that Saints were the MOST disciplined people who ever lived.  Why
 do you think Jesus followers were called disciples ?   If you want to
 follow the Lord you to must become a disciplined disciple.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 10:25:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> > Don't you see you are starting with a
 RC> > preconceived idea that Jesus was sinless because you think his
 RC> mother was
 RC> > a virgin, and then worked backwards to reach your conclusion
 RC> that sin > comes from the father ?
 RC> No.  I am using parallel concepts to believe that Jesus was
 RC> without sin (the
 RC> fact that he was God; that he needed to be sinless if he were to
 RC> fulfill the type of the OT sin offerings, including being the
 RC> Passover lamb;

 Did the passover lamb have a father ?

 RC> Thank you, but it means that I can also understand that your
 RC> doctrine is not only extra-biblical but it is
 RC> biblically-opposed.

 What have I taught that is "opposed" by scripture ?   There is no
 scripture that says God does not want grand children.   If God does want
 grand children then Adam and Eve made a mistake and Jesus came to
 correct it but was MURDERED before He could bring physical salvation...
 so Christ must return and physically save man.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 10:30:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> >  There were none. Satan helped the faithless people kill him.
 RC> That is >  why Christ must come again.  Didn't I cover this with
 RC> you before ? Somewhat.
 RC> You are saying that the New Covenant is worthless?

 I told you before the answer is no.  Jesus brought spiritual salvation.
 That was not a possibility before his arrival.  Now believers can go to
 paradise when they enter the spiritual world.  You will find out how
 "worthless" that really is when you die.  Believe me, you will be happy
 to go to paradise when you see most of the other options.  That is the
 reward of the conditions established by the New Covenant.

 Did you ever read that the New Covenant was the "Last Covenant" ?
 Are you prepared to understand and reap the rewards of the next covenant
 God will establish with man ?

 I'll come down and visit you in paradise. <grin> ...but I would rather
 see you in Heaven.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 10:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant

 RC> That's not what you said.  You said there is not even one Jew
 RC> who expects Christ to come again.

 Well I must have fallen asleep at the keyboard and struck some keys I
 wasn't aware of.  I know there are thousands of Jewish people who are
 looking forward to the coming of Christ... again.  But the Jewish faith
 does NOT teach that Christ will come twice.   Non Christian Jews are
 still waiting on the first coming of Christ...  and they do not plan to
 KILL him.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 10:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 RC>  In your "blessed marriage" concept
 RC> there is no blood sacrifice for the sin of the children, yet you
 RC> say that they are born without sin.

 Jesus came to save sinners.  People born without sin don't need a
 Savior, they grow up to become Messiah's themselves.

 LUK 5:32    I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 10:47:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 RC> sins.  It is not a question of power or authority, but of
 RC> meeting the requirementhat God Himself has laid out.  If God
 RC> requires blood to be shed for remission of
 RC> sin, then for God to just say, "Okay, all is forgiven" would not
 RC> meet the conditions that he created.
 RC> It's not a question of what God can do.  It's a question of what
 RC> He will do.

 Even IF you are right, don't you know that God is not so rigid that He
 cannot be convinced to change his requirements ?

 How many righteous men did God finally agree be required to spare Sodom?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 10:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Covenant 3

 RC> God doesn't require a religious life, but rather a life, period.

 You don't mean to say there is no need for discipline do you ?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 10:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Jesus/God

 RC> > RC> You are confusing "sins" with "nature."  You are born with
 RC> the >  RC> sin nature.
 RC> >
 RC> > Now you are using UPC terminology if I'm not mistaken.  How
 RC> many hats do
 RC> > you have ?

 RC> If I sit in a chair that a dog sat in, does that make me a dog?

 NO, but you will probably start to smell like one.  <grin>

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 10:58:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Martin Fontenot
Subject      Restore.3 part 2/2

 MF> By the way,  I agree.  I wonder how often that would happen if
 MF> your posts were shorter<duck and run>

 Just read as much as you want and quit.   Some people catch on faster
 than others.  You may not need all the details.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 11:05:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    The Name

 RC> Where does the passage suggest that this is the Angel of the
 RC> Lord, rather than some other angel?  The Angel of the Lord
 RC> _does_ accept worship.

 I could be mistaken about this, but I believe that either you are on
 God's side or you are not.  If an angel delivered a message to St. John
 from God, I would guess that the angel was "of the Lord" and not a
 fallen one.

 If you go to another country and represent the USA, then you are an
 ambassador of the USA.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 11:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Tom Grelinger
Subject    Trinity Lie

 TG> I guess we have the pot calling the kettle black.  The same
 TG> could be said of your beliefs including Jesus is not God (which
 TG> is also a JW teaching), that Jesus's purpose was to bear
 TG> offspring who are sinless, that John the Baptist "failed", and
 TG> that Jesus was born of a union between Mary and Zachary.

 Yes, you are correct.  I don't believe the Bible is the "Whole Truth".
 The Bible promises that more will come :

 JOH 16:25   These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the
 time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I
 shall shew you plainly of the Father.

 ACS 2:17    And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I
 will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your
 daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your
 old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I
 will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

 AMO 3:7     Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his
 secret unto his servants the prophets.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 09:57:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    WHERE ARE GOD'S GRAND CHI

 RC> >  That is correct in my opinion also.

 RC> Where do you draw the line?  Where it contradicts the teachings
 RC> of Reverend Moon?

 First, you assume that Rev. Moon has explained every word in the Bible.
 This is not the case.  Rev. Moon simply taught that the will of God is
 to realize HIS grand children on the earth.

 Once you understand this you can correctly interpret scriptures about
 anything.   Grand children are something God cannot create by Himself.
 He needs man and woman's cooperation.  So we can see how the omnipotence
 of God is limited by the laws of love. Love cannot exist without
 freedom.  God gave up His freedom to dominate mankind in order to
 realize His goal... grand children.

 When we read about the fall of man, we can easily see a great deal of
 evidence that immoral sexual conduct was involved.  First they were
 naked and unashamed then they sinned then they were ashamed of their
 nakedness.  The nature of sin is to hid it... that is why we are taught
 to confess and repent.  Jesus and John the Baptist said that fallen man
 was children of the devil... again indicating a blood relationship that
 is established through a sexual relationship.

 When we look at the ministry of Jesus and realize that it concluded with
 only spiritual salvation we know physical salvation is left
 unaccomplished. When we read that Christ prayed so deeply he sweated
 blood that the cup of death could be passed from him, we can't simply
 say he was afraid to die and make him out to be such a wimp.  Surely
 Jesus had a reason other than his own personal welfare to pray in such a
 way.  He wanted to continue his ministry and establish an ideal
 family... giving God grand children.


 And finall, we know that God has not abandoned His goals so Christ MUST
 return in the flesh to establish the ideal family and bring God's grand
 children into the world.

 PRO 17:6    Children's children [are] the crown of old men; and the
             glory of children [are] their fathers.


 Where is God's glory when Satan has realized millions of grand children
 and He NEVER had one ?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 11:14:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Phil Morrison
Subject      Worthless Covenants

 PM>     Tell me, Terry, do I need any person on earth to help me
 PM>              find salvation?              phil

 What level of salvation do you want ?   If you are satisfied to be
 spiritually saved and to go to paradise, then you can receive rebirth
 through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. ....but you already know that.

 If you want to receive God's blessing of marriage ( a qualification for
 entering Heaven ) then you need a minister on earth who has God's
 authority to marry you to your wife.  You also need True Parents to
 adopt you so you and your wife can grow to the position of True Son and
 True Daughter of God. But they may not be on earth when you realize they
 have come.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 11:23:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Worthless Covenants

 RC> It's not in code, nor is it that easy to read.  While you don't
 RC> know of any sinless children, God knows of thousands upon
 RC> thousands, all of whom accepted
 RC> his free gift of God's sinlessness.

 If they truly were sinless then it would be IMPOSSIBLE for their
 children to be born with sin.  And God would have had grand children
 right after Jesus left.   But He didn't.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 12:10:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Areafix
Subject    26XYG

 GEANEOLOGY
 ---

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 12:17:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3

 WC>    You make an excellent point, John. But I'm afraid that it is
 WC> to no avail. The belief is similar to the New Age belief on the
 WC> subject. Jesus was A messiah. Moon is also A messiah. Basically
 WC> anyone can be A messiah. The fact that Jesus is still alive is
 WC> immaterial. Their minds have already been made up. They do not
 WC> wish to be confused with facts.

 Are you saying you are flexible?  I have not seen you demonstrate any
 flexibility in your doctrine no matter how well presented you have been
 with "the facts."

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 12:19:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.6

 WC>    That was when Jesus was casting out demons and working other
 WC> miracles. Can you list us any miracles which Rev Moon has
 WC> preformed such as walking on water, raising the dead, instantly
 WC> healing people of diseases, etc.?

 Yes, Rev. Moon has performed many miracles.  Hopeless people have hope.
 People who want faith and reason in harmony have their prayers answered.
 People with addictions have been cured.  Sinners are saved !  But Rev.
 Moon didn't do it. It was the power of God working through him.

 WC> TB>You are going to get a real surprise when you find out you
 WC> are the TB>one duped by the devil.

 WC>    That is always a danger. But I will not be duped by the devil
 WC> on the subject of Messiah. There is only one Messiah. His name
 WC> is Jesus. He is no dead. So long as He is alive there can not be
 WC> another. There- fore, anyone claiming to be messiah is a false
 WC> prophet and a liar.

 Silly reasoning.  Why can't Jesus have a brother?  Why was there a need
 for a warning about false prophets if no true ones were ever to come?
 It would have been much simpler to just say "Don't believe anyone."
 The reason for warning about false prophets was to help you distinguish
 them from true ones.

 WC> area, at least, I do something right. Nor is there any danger of
 WC> Jesus suffering any longer. He was made to suffer only the one
 WC> time. That was when He purchased our salvation.

 You don't know what you are talking about.  Jesus suffers when you
 reject his message to you and call it the work of the devil.  Jesus did
 in fact speak to Rev. Moon.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 12:29:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Steve Klemetti
Subject    Whatever?

 SK> Their shame as to their sexual parts was a consequence of their
 SK> sinful state and nothing to do with their being married or the
 SK> blessing.  Shame and modesty would give people a sense of
 SK> responsibility to handle sex responsibly.  And not have sex with
 SK> anyone and anything because of the sinful tendencies of the
 SK> fallen flesh and the devil.

 And then God played a trick on Abraham and asked him to circumsize
 himself just for the heck of it.  The draining of blood from Abraham's
 sexual part had nothing to do with purification of the same part Adam
 sinned with ...it was simply a "fun" thing for the old man to do.  OUCH!

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-25-91 16:33:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dwain Goforth @ 914/602
Subject     Good And Evil

 DG> >  ROM 12:21   Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with
 DG> good. >
 DG> Not at all.  *If* evil exists I give it no foothold in my life
 DG> because I refuse to validate it.  It is people who are always
 DG> hunting for evil and claiming this or that is evil that give it
 DG> "respect."  You have this
 DG> thing about fornication of Satan with Eve and thinking sex is
 DG> dirty or evil.  It is not,

 I sure don't think sex is dirty or evil in of itself. But you would
 probably agree that like anything else, whether or not it be money,
 power, fire etc, sexual love can be misused.  You should agree that sex
 with another person's spouse is wrong, and sex with children or members
 of your own sex or animals is wrong.  Does this recognition make you
 believe that sex is dirty and evil.  I don't think so.

 DG> but it is *your* heart and mind that creates the "evil."

 Yes, evil is inside us. And I would agree that it was/is people who
 create it. I believe that God creates only Good. But don't tell
 Christians because the ones I've been talking think man can do nothing
 to play a part in his salvation.  People believe in two extremes. One
 one hand some believe everything is up to God and on the other hand some
 believe everything is up to man.  Your statement that identifying evil
 gives it respect indicates you believe the ball in in man's court. While
 I agree that it is up to man to find a solution, I don't think man can
 solve the problem by himself.   I think you are incorrect to suggest
 that we ignore sin.  That won't make it go away. If we can't recognize
 the root of sin, we must continue to struggle with it on a personal
 level, all our life. But that is like trying to kill a tree by plucking
 of some of the leaves.  As long as the root system, trunk, and branches
 are in place, another leaf will appear somewhere else.  Like a madman
 trying to put out little fires all over the place we can struggle all
 our life and the next generation will be no better off.  There MUST be a
 way to break this chain.   Some day someone will discover it.  But I
 doubt that will make them popular.

 The root of evil is the misuse of love.  Love is the only thing Adam and
 Eve could have desired at the cost of their life.  Impure love is the
 way Satan has dominated mankind since the fall.  True love was lost
 before God could establish a second generation on earth.  This is why
 the Bible tells us that in one generation the world will be transformed.
 When one generation finds True Love false love will not be so delicious
 any longer.  Actually people can't really know that their love is fallen
 until they have true love to compare it to.  But true love brings with
 it confrontation and change.  It is not easy to change.  It is not a
 comfortable feeling to see the impurities inside myself.  If we are to
 become a citizen of the kingdom of heaven we have to consider our
 standard and compare it to God's standard.  True love and false love
 cannot coincide, so who should change ?  Should God lower His standards,
 or should we raise ours ?  I have told many people in this conference
 that the people who make it to heaven will go screaming and kicking and
 resisting all the way  ...and no one has understood the meaning of this.
 Can you ?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-26-91 09:35:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Gary Johnson
Subject       COVENANT

 GJ> Are you still beating that drum about how Adam and Eve
 GJ> fornicated in the Garden?

 Yes. Exposing Satan is my job.

 GJ> Sheesh! the sin they committed was DISOBEDIENCE to GOd, eating
 GJ> the fruit of the Tree (And no Terry, I don't really care WHAT
 GJ> the symbolic signifigance of the tree is at this poit)

 Well I though you were interested in truth.

 JOH 8:32    And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you
 free.

 GJ> fcts, as my Bible tells me:

 GJ> 1. Adam and Eve were told EXPLICITLY not to eat of the fruit
 GJ> 2. Enter Satan, (int he serpent's Garb) who tempted Eve, talked
 GJ> her into beleiving that she COULD eat the fruit.
 GJ> 3. Eve ate of the fruit, followed by Adam.
 GJ> 4. When they ate the fruit, they recognized what nakedness was,
 GJ> and set forth to make garments for themselves of fig leaves.

 Have you ever seen anyone cover their sexual parts when they were caught
 eating something.  Of course not.  You hid what you do wrong and what
 you do it with.  If Adam and Eve were eating literal fruit they would
 have covered their mouth.

 Your logic is faulty because the Bible clearly tells us the Tree of Life
 is symbolic. A literal tree and a symbolic tree don't grow side by side.
 The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is also a symbolic tree.  Real
 fruit does not grow on symbolic trees.  They could not possibly have
 eaten real fruit.  So what did they actually do ?

 What would cause God to later tell Abraham to drain the blood from his
 sexual part ?  Just a cute trick to pull on an old man ?  Or does
 draining blood have something to do with purification ?

 If you carefully read John 8:40 ff   you can know Jesus was telling the
 people that fallen man was born of fornication. That means that fallen
 man's parents were never blessed in marriage by God.   There is ONLY ONE
 solution to this problem; get blessed in marriage by God.   Can the
 just anyone give God's blessing of marriage to fallen man, or does it
 require the Messiah ?

 REV 19:9    And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are
 called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These
 are the true sayings of God.

 GJ> And btw, in another part of your message you made reference to
 GJ> knowing who Satan was..Why on EARTH would I care to spend that
 GJ> kind of time on that old devil?

 So "that old devil" won't find it so easy to trick me into behaving in
 such a way that my actions verify his claims that I belong to him.  You
 see, I plan on being dead a long time.

 GJ> Have a nice Christmas

 You too.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-26-91 09:56:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Daniel Osborn
Subject    Trinity Lie

 DO> Jesus made it clear. Love your enemies. He would never support
 DO> you though, in calling it a lack of love to refuse to eat the
 DO> filth that Moon offers. He would consider it a lack of love for
 DO> me to ignore your attempts to present it unchallenged.

 You have learned well from those who attack your faith.  You were once
 the new kid on the block and they gave you hell. Now that I come along
 with a newer faith you join their camp and throw rocks at me.  The same
 arguments and criticism they had toward you were saved as ammunition and
 hurl in my direction.  Why can't you remember they attacked you out of
 ignorance and figure out that you are doing the same thing? Breaking
 your neighbor's windows doesn't make your house look any prettier.  It
 makes the whole block look like a dump to those outside the religious
 community.  You are never going to attract anyone to your faith by
 writing messages that say "the filth that Moon offers."

 DO> p.s. You have never answered my question directly regarding the
 DO> stand of Universalists and war. Would Universalists living in
 DO> Iraq allow themselves to be inducted into Saddam's military
 DO> force? Would Universalists in the U.S. military
 DO> be willing to kill Universalist citizens of Iraq by bombing them
 DO> or shooting them? In what way would this be showing love for them?


 I answered that question but not to your satisfaction.  First, I'm not a
 Universalist, I'm a Unificationist.    If you were drafted into the Iraq
 army would you commit suicide to get out?  Once you were in the field
 would you shoot someone who was trying to kill you?  Sometimes we don't
 have the power to prevent such things.    How would you suggest I get
 out of such a situation?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-26-91 12:43:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Richard Salisbury
Subject    Unification church

 TB>  So God's goal for His children was for them to mature
 TB> and give Him grand children.

 RS> Whoa, there, slow down... all this has been interesting:
 RS> You might readily compare LDS teachings of the Plan of
 RS> Salvation, with your "purpose" doctrine.  We too, understand the
 RS> importance  of fulfilling the will of the Lord.  We
 RS> recognize the crucial nature of the agency of man in
 RS> that Plan. ...We too, call Him Father...

 Could it be that Jesus did appear to Joseph Smith and later to Rev. Moon
 and tell them something modern Christianity needs to know ?

 RS>         ...but where does this "grandfather" notion arise?

 Gen 1:27 "Multiply"   I'm pretty sure God was NOT saying go have
 children of the devil.  I believe God wanted Adam and Eve to have
 children that would resemble HIM.   We can see the Children of Adam and
 Eve committed murder as evidence they were not children of God. And when
 we read John 8:40 ff  we can find Jesus saying that fallen man was born
 of the devil as a result of fornication.  We believe that Eve entered
 into a sexual relationship with Lucifer.  This act of fornication caused
 her to feel shame and guilt which she passed on to Adam.  As a result of
 the knowledge of sexual love Adam and Eve began to procreate children
 outside the blessing of God's marriage.   Now we are still waiting on
 the marriage of the lamb. ( Rev. 19:9 )

 RS> In what respect are you regarding Adam and Eve as
 RS> "children" ?         ...this isn't akin to Cabalistic "Lilith"
 RS> concepts, is it?

 You got me there.  I have no idea what the "Catbalistic Lility" concept
 is.

 TB> Since this did not happen, God's goal remains unchanged.  He still
 TB> wants grand children.   And yet Adam and Eve did multiply...

 RS> are you suggesting that their  children weren't His "grandchildren"
 RS> because they were conceived  in some kind of lesser manner??

 Well, we clearly know that fallen man is of his father the devil :

 Jesus sez:

 JOH 8:44    Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your
 father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not
 in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie,
 he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 Now how could fallen man be born into Satan's lineage?  Only a sin that
 is somehow connected with sexual love could be responsible :

 JOH 8:41    Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be
 not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God. Jesus said unto
 them, If God were your Father, ye would love me:


 TB> So you can see we strongly disagree with the fundamental concept
 TB> that the mission of Jesus was to die on the cross. Jesus was to
 TB> mature, marry and establish an ideal family, procreating more
 TB> sinless children ...God's grand children.

 RS>         You therefore believe that Christ was a failure?

 No, I believe Christ could have brought both spiritual AND PHYSICAL
 salvation if the chosen people had accepted and believed in him. The
 idea of calling someone a failure that gave their live for their mission
 does not sit well with me.  I look at it like a situation a coach could
 find himself in who struggled with his team and got to the super bowl...
 but on the way the plane crashed and killed all his players.  He may go
 on to recruit some of the fans who came to watch but no reporter in his
 right mind would write a story saying that coach whats-his-name loses
 the super bowl.  Jesus could not find the faith necessary to establish
 an ideal family and bring sinless children into the world because John
 the Baptist FAILED.  John had the mission to make straight the way of
 the lord, but the way of the lord went straight to the crucifixion
 rather than the establishment of the kingdom of heaven on earth.  John
 lost faith in Jesus and contradicted Jesus.  Since people though John
 was possibly the Christ and they believed Jesus was a drunkard and a
 glutton, they naturally believed John rather than Jesus.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-26-91 13:18:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Richard Salisbury
Subject    Unification church

 RS> I must strongly disagree with your strongly disagreeing.
 RS> {grin} Of course, I agree that this is a fundamental
 RS> concept; and a look at the LDS belief of the purpose of
 RS> the Lord in the creation, or what we commonly refer to
 RS> as the Plan of Salvation, might clarify that a tad.
 RS> I must, however, "strongly disagree" about your
 RS> description of the mission of Jesus.  I would be interested in
 RS> learning your reference to that, as it strikes me as clearly
 RS> nonBiblical.  I do not wish to presuppose, however, so
 RS> please inform me of any scriptural support for this
 RS> description of Christ's mission.

 You are more "Christian" than Christians give you credit for. <grin>

 You most likely are taking the position that there was always suppose to
 be two advents of Christ.  However, it is my belief that Christ could
 have established the kingdom of heaven at the first advent if the chosen
 people had obeyed him.

 JOH 6:29    Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God,
 that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 I'll post a message to you from the Divine Principle about the purpose
 of the coming of the Messiah as we interpret it from scripture.  Please
 ask questions.

 TB> First remember that sinless children grow up to become messiah's...
 TB> 10 or 20 messiah's ?

 RS> I find this very difficult to stomach.  First, we only
 RS> have one  "sinless" man for reference - Jesus Christ.

 If it disturbs you think what that idea does to Satan.  How much trouble
 has he had with one Messiah?  The thought of Jesus fathering sinless
 children really scares him.

 RS> Whom your teachings pronounce a failure, and hence not
 RS> the Messiah.

 Nope, you reached that conclusion.  Jesus was the Messiah and DID bring
 spiritual salvation.

 RS> How, then, your conclusion that sinless
 RS> children grow up to become messiah's ?

 There has been only ONE person in history who was born sinless and he
 grew up to become the Messiah.  Doesn't 1 out of 1 give you the
 impression that sinless children have a strong chance to attain
 perfection ?

 RS> Secondly, unless I am grossly misrepresenting the scriptural
 RS> account, there is but ONE "Messiah" - never a reference to 10.

 There will be one FIRST one, but after the marriage of the Lamb... well,
 let me put it this way:  First comes marriage then comes Mrs. Messiah
 pushing a baby carriage !   <grin>

 TB> Let's also remember that sinless children are born right the
 TB> first time, so they have no need for a messiah and rebirth

 RS> Are you suggesting the existence (ever) of additional
 RS> such "sinless"  children, besides Christ ??

 Yes. Absolutely.  If you were God how many children like Jesus Christ
 would you want ?

 RS>  (Reference ?)

 Common sense.

 RS> the source of your beliefs IS scripture.  Is It?

 Not really.  Jesus Christ appeared to Rev. Moon Easter Sunday 1935 and
 began a series of many appearances and revelations.  That is the basis
 for my belief and I find those messages as recorded in the Divine
 Principle in harmony and supported by scripture.  So yes, I'm doing like
 every other faith.  I have a conclusion then I look to scripture to
 support it.  Isn't that same process the reason many Christians give
 your faith a hard time ?

 RS> Please do not find my responses impolite.  I am sincerely curious.

 No offense taken.  I have never had any Mormon show discourtesy toward
 me and flame me for my belief or any other reason.

 RX> I would also like to know how your
 RS> church is organized - in terms of ministers, priesthood,
 RS> and the like.

 It is much like yours.  The model for the kingdom of heaven is like the
 organization of the human body.  In our case, the True Parents of
 mankind ( Rev. Moon and his wife ) are at the head,  then the central
 nervous system is composed of earlier followers.  And finally I'm at the
 bottom. <smile>    Seriously though, there is great emphasis on the
 blessing of marriage. The couples who were blessed the earliest are in a
 parental position to the members who were blessed later.  Everything in
 our organization revolves around the parent - child relationship.
 MegaMail -> Warning, Message Truncated!

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-26-91 13:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Richard Salisbury
Subject    Unification church

 RS> Seeing your belief that         Jesus "failed"

 No, again that is not the way I view Jesus' ministry.  Jesus did all he
 could do under the conditions he was placed in by the chosen people. The
 kingdom of heaven cannot be established through force.

 RS> I assume that the Sacrament, or Communion, is not something you
 RS> engage in.

 Yes, but only once at the time we are engaged to our spouse.  There is a
 ceremony resembling Holy Communion we participate in that one time.  I
 would also like to note that many of our members have had deep personal
 spiritual experiences at that time.  At the risk of sound crazier than
 you may already think I am, I will admit that I heard spiritual singing
 myself at that time.  That was quite an experience because I am not a
 "spiritual" type person. My education was in biology, science, and
 chemistry.  I was raised in the Southern Baptist faith.  So neither of
 these backgrounds supported the kind of atmosphere that tends to open a
 person to 'stuff' like visions, spiritual sounds, speaking in tongues
 etc.

 RS> Also, I assume that you do not embrace the Law of Moses.  Based on
 RS> that second assumption, I must further assume that your church does
 RS> not completely embrace the Old Testament; (since you seek the
 RS> Messiah, and at the same time do not maintain the "preparatory law.

 If you are looking for a yes or no answer you will be disappointed.  I
 view the history of man in light of progression or evolution of truth as
 we mature in our relationship with God.  Like we have to begin the
 relationship with our children with the law: which is a list of don't's,
 God had to establish 10 commandments that were His list of don't's.
 Later when Jesus came those 10 commandments were in a sense replaced by
 2 commandments which said love God and love thy neighbor.  If a person
 loves his neighbor he won't steal, cheat, lie, etc. to them.   The new
 age will bring a new expression of the truth which will elevate man's
 personal relationship with God. First we had the age of the law, then
 the age of love, and now the age of the heart of the parent.  You can
 realize that the religion founded by God's son taught that God was our
 father. Your church is really the only one that caught on to the meaning
 of this.  When Rev. Moon came to America the first time in 1960 he
 visited the Mormon Church first, before he went to visit any other
 faith's.  You have a lot going for you and God has blessed your faith
 with a great deal of material wealth because your families are solid and
 you understand America has a great part to play in God's providence for
 the restoration of the world.  All this came to you in the midst of
 strong persecution.  I hope you can understand the ideas I am expressing
 to you.


 RS> I would also be interested in how you became a "Moonie".
 RS> Anyway, I appreciate your comments, and await those to come.

 I heard the truth and believed it.  But that sounds arrogant.  I'll tell
 you more later if you are still around.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-26-91 20:05:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Abraham.4             2/

 WC> TB>Fourthly, Esau had to stand in the position of multiplying
 WC> (ex- TB>panding) goodness, by inheriting goodness from Jacob,
 WC> who had TB>received the blessing from God.

 WC>    This is extra-biblical and not rational. Goodness is not an
 WC> inheritable trait as such. It is an act of will. It would be a
 WC> physi- cal impossibility for Esau to inherit "goodness" from
 WC> Jacob.

 MAT 10:41   He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall
 receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the
 name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

 HEB 12:16   Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau,
 who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.  For ye know how that
 afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected:
 for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with
 tears.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-26-91 20:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Restore.3

 WC>    Terry, marriage is always involves a relationship. There is a
 WC> relationship between the church and Jesus. The marriage
 WC> relationship is supposed to be the closest possible between two
 WC> people. The church is alluded to as a bride in a number of
 WC> passages. Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus will ever marry
 WC> a woman and father children.

 Ok, but neither does it say that Christ will not come again in the flesh
 and marry and have children.   I'm telling you that I personally KNOW it
 will happen.  You have no proof that it won't.

 This is EXACTLY what history will be saying about you :

 1JO 4:3     And every spirit that confesseth not that [the second coming
 of] Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit]
 of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now
 already is it in the world.


 2JO 1:7     For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess
 not that [the second coming of] Christ is come in the flesh. This is a
 deceiver and an antichrist.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-26-91 22:34:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Dale Robertson
Subject    Moon

 DR>   He is nothing but a cult leader in my opinion. He does not
 DR> advocate The Bible or knows anything about christianity. I hate
 DR> to past judgment but he does not represent anything having to do
 DR> with the Bible and his prophesy and revelations
 DR> from Christ does not even go along with his "Word".

 Well, it is good to see that the reputation of Christ has improved since
 his first coming :

 LUK 7:34    The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say,
 Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and
 sinners!

 If Rev Moon does turn out to be a man of God, I'm sure glad my name is
 not in the 'from' column of messages I have been reading between folks
 who persecuted him.  It will could be embarrassing to the point of pure
 shame in a relative short period of time.  I'm saving everything people
 have said about him for their grand children to read.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 12:31:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rich Cowan
Subject    5-Steps to Salvation.....

 RC> Let's set the record straight,

 That's what I've been trying to do in this conference for over 2 years.
 But people continue to believe the misinterpreted doctrines they have
 been taught no matter how many times I post the truth.


 RC> if this kind of stuff conmtinued you would be losing people,
 RC> instead of what I think the purpose of this echo is (unless
 RC> I am mistaking) is for winning folk to the Lord....

 It may take you a wile to catch on, but there is NO one here looking for
 the Lord. Everyone has found what they think is the Lord and is here to
 tell you what to believe.

 RC>                5 STEPS TO SALVATION


 Oops, your first mistake.  There are only 2 steps to salvation:

 1. Find the Messiah
 2. Follow the Messiah


 RC> The above verses are all from the Living Bible.  If you look at
 RC> the verses here as compared to the KJV or NIV, they say the same
 RC> thing, they are only written in different kind of English....


 Ralph.... oh Ralph...  did you hear that ?

 You obviously haven't met Ralph Stokes yet.  He'll set you straight
 about which version of the Bible is the ONLY one written by God.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 12:44:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rich Cowan
Subject    Gods Gifts

 RC> Into this perfect creation, however, has appeared an intruder, a
 RC> isorderiagent.  By man came sin, and then came the great Curse, and
 RC> ow the whole creations is under the bondage of decay (Romans
 RC> :20-22). In science, this also is recognized as a universal law,
 RC> he principle of increasing entropy, the "second law of
 RC> hermodynamics," the universally- observed fact that everything
 RC> ends to wear out, run down, disintegrate, gr_ own old and die.  The
 RC> erm "entropy" (from two Greek words, en and trope, meani_ ng "in"
 RC> nd "turning") itself suggests that any system which "turns inward
 RC> or its strength will soon decay.

 Are you suggesting the fall of man was unavoidable ?  It appears you are
 saying that science recognizes a universal law that would make the fall
 of man inevitable. Why did God bother to give Adam and Eve a commandment
 they could not have possibly kept without violating universal law ?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 12:55:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rich Cowan
Subject    Why JESUS

 RC> .     1)   You are an enemy of God because of your sin.  The
 RC> Bible says in Isaiah 59:2,  "But your iniquities [sins] have
 RC> hidden His face from you, so  that He does not hear."
 RC> .     2)  Worse than that, God is going to judge you for your
 RC> sins.

 JOH 5:22    For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all
 judgment unto the Son:

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 14:24:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fall.4                1/

 TB>By pointing out from scripture that people are God's children and
 TB>angels are God's servants we can easily summarize that the parent
 TB>- child relationship was deeper than the master - servant.

 WC> Certainly in human relationships the child-parent
 WC> relationship is different that the master-servant but that does
 WC> not necessarily mean that it is deeper. It is only different.

 So if I come to work for you I will get an equal share of your
 inheritance as you plan to give your children?  Why do I doubt it?

 TB>Who created Lucifer ?  How could God create such a being filled
 TB>with hate.

 WC>    Your question demonstrates a lack of knowledge of what the
 WC> Bible says about the creation of Lucifer.

 No, your reply demonstrates a lack of knowledge of God.  You said that
 God created Lucifer and Lucifer was filled with hate. You implied that
 God put it there.

 WC>    The hate is certainly there. However, you assertion that he
 WC> was created with the hate is not supported by Scripture (See
 WC> Ezekiel 28:15).

 Where did it come from?  I have always maintained that God does not
 create evil. Many people want to be pardoned by claiming the devil made
 me do it and now you want to pardon the devil by saying that God created
 him 'filled with hate."    I'm sure you are confused.

 WC>    In this case Eve was the weak link. That becomes obvious from
 WC> the events. Had Adam been the weaker link Satan would have
 WC> tempted him instead of Eve.

 Not at all.  The facts that are obvious show that Lucifer was attracted
 to Eve.  Now all you have to do is understand why a masculine angel
 would be attracted to Eve more than he was to Adam.   Why don't you
 write down a few possibilities and read John 8:44 and see which of your
 guesses most closely resembles the facts?

 WC> TB>The temptation had something to do with love because love is
 WC> the TB>only force stronger than the desire for life and she knew
 WC> that TB>disobedience would lead to death.

 WC>    This is an assumption on your part. You have assumed that the
 WC> root of the problem was love. That is not what the Bible
 WC> teaches. The cause of the fall was pride.

 You got the cart before the horse.  Lucifer was jealous and wanted more
 love.  Pride came later.

 WC>    Spirits do not have a biological sexual gender. The
 WC> assumption of sexual attraction is incorrect and is contradicted
 WC> by Jesus.

 Where?  You are making that up.  Read Jude verse 6 & 7 if you want to
 know the truth.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 14:40:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fall.4                2/

 TB>There was no animal involved.  Lucifer the serpent is a spiritual
 TB>being.

 WC> Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of
 WC> the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the
 WC> woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the
 WC> garden?    A clear indication of a physical being.

 REV 12:9    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called
 the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out
 into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. REV 20:2    And
 he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and
 Satan, and bound him a thousand years,


 You are overlooking the obvious fact that this serpent once lived in
 heaven.  Clear evidence Lucifer was not a literal snake.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 14:42:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fall.4                2/

 TB>Eve has both a physical body and a spiritual body. It was her
 TB>spiritual body and his spiritual body that enguaged in fornica-
 TB>tion.

 WC>    You have yet to quote a scripture which says that Eve
 WC> committed fornication with Satan. You have insisted the Cain was
 WC> the result of such fornication. Now you are saying that it was
 WC> spiritual fornica- tion. That is a new one. It is the only case
 WC> in history. Spiritual fornication producing a physical baby.
 WC> Usually it is physical fornica- tion which results in babies.

 You don't read very well.  I never said that Cain was fathered by the
 devil as a result of Eve's seduction by Lucifer.  You still haven't read
 the book of Jude. It is only 1 chapter so pay close attention to verses
 6 & 7 so God can speak to you and show you the truth.

 How do you suppose an angel dislocated Jacob's thigh?  Looks like
 contact to me.

 I just wonder in all your ceremonies of demonic liberation why you have
 never encountered any demons sexually harassing anyone.  Have you ?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 14:49:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fall.4                2/

 TB>What did they do? What did they do? You admit the tree of life is
 TB>symbolic ...then the tree beside it must be symbolic also.  What
 TB>kind of fruit grows on a symbolic tree?   Yes, you got it !  A
 TB>symbolic fruit.

 WC>    No, Terry. You are incorrect. There are numerous different
 WC> expressions for sexual contact in the Bible. Not a single one
 WC> of them is ever applied to the temptation of Eve. There was not
 WC> sexual misconduct involved.

 Not even the one about Adam and Eve being ashamed of their "lower parts"
 and covering themselves with aprons?  Come on Walter. Get serious.

 WC>    I hear your words but they are meaningless.

 That is really sad.

 JOH 16:7    Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you
 that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto
 you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he
 will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of
 sin, because they believe not on me;


 TB>Weak... real weak.  God's first children were getting married and
 TB>He simply presented them to each other.

 WC>    You are contradicted by the Bible, Terry. I have posted the
 WC> verse before and you have ignored it. The Bible says in plain
 WC> black and white that the two were married.

 Well here is some black and white for you to plainly see:

 REV 19:7    Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the
 marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And
 to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and
 white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith
 unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage
 supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of
 God.


 Sounds like God wants the marriage of His son and daughter to be a
 little more special than saying "here Adam this is Eve".

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 15:01:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fall.4                3/

 WC>    This is self evidently incorrect. The marriage supper of the
 WC> Lamb takes place during the seven years of tribulation. When the
 WC> seven years is completed Jesus returns in clouds of glory at the
 WC> head of an army and establishes His Millennial Kingdom on the
 WC> earth. You cite 1960 as the date that the marriage took place.
 WC> That would be 31 years ago. No matter how one attempts to
 WC> calculate it that is a minimum of 24 years. The event did not
 WC> occurred. There has been no world war with hundreds of millions
 WC> killed and other hundreds of millions dying of disease and
 WC> starvation. Neither has the Millennial Kingdom been set up on
 WC> the earth with headquarters in Jerusalem.

 You must not have a subscription to any newspaper or magazine... or own
 a tv.   All that stuff already happened. Sorry it wasn't bloody enough
 to satisfy your requirements.  If you had been the parent, brother, or
 sister to someone who lost their life to the Godless ideology of
 Communism you would have had enough blood and gore.

 MAT 16:2    He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say,
 [It will be] fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, [It
 will be] foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O [ye]
 hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not [discern]
 the signs of the times?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 15:09:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fall.4                3/

 TB>but we are living at the same time of the second coming of

 WC> Christ.    If you are saying that we who are alive today are the
 WC> generation which will see the Second Advent I agree though I
 WC> also understand that simple because I believe it does not make
 WC> it a fact. It could happen after I am in the grave.

 And if you belive the marriage of the Lamb has not taken place then your
 belief doesn't change the fact that is did either.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 15:12:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fall.5                1/

 WC>    It sees that they were. The Bible lets us know that God
 WC> walked with Adam as with no other until the fall. One thing
 WC> which most people seem to over look is that while Eve succumbed
 WC> to temptation Adam did not. He know the penalties involved. It
 WC> is very possible that he love Eve enough that he was willing to
 WC> share her fate so that she would not be alone.

 So Adam left God for a fallen woman?  Would any true man of God forsake
 God for a fallen woman?  You aren't following Jimmy Swaggart are you?

 WC> TB>Satan taught Adam and Eve about false, self-centered love.
 WC>    This is extra-biblical. There is no evidence in the Bible to
 WC> support this position. Satan gave them no instruction. He only
 WC> tempted.

 Either it was God or Satan. Which one?

 WC>    There was no contention about demons being spirit beings. The
 WC> point you maid was that Satan's objects were evil spirit
 WC> persons. There is no statement in the Bible to support such a
 WC> contention. The objects of Satan's attention are believers.

 When a demon possesses someone do you think they are working for God?

 I have to say you are getting more mixed up every day.  Let's see if I
 can straighten you out.   There are two sides, the good side and the
 evil side and :

 LUK 16:13    No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate
 the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and
 despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

 Now, demons (fallen angels and the spirits of evil people)  work on
 Satan's team  While saints ( unfallen angels and the spirits of holy men
 and women) work on God's team.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 16:41:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fall.6                1/

 WC> WC>     God does not impute the sins of one person to another.
 WC> The WC> sins of the parent are not imputed to the child.
 WC> Therefore WC> "original sin" is not imputed to the child. Only
 WC> the WC> consequences of that sin are passed on to the children.
 WC>
 WC> TB>ROM 5:12    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the
 WC> world, TB>and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,
 WC> for that all TB>have sinned:
 WC>    You appear to have misapplied this verse.
 WC>    All mankind is under sin and in need of justification.
 WC> Chapter 3 of Romans teaches that all men have sinned, but
 WC> chapter 5 teaches that all men are born under the dominion of
 WC> sin and with a sinful nature. This passage does not speak of
 WC> sins (sinful acts) but of sin (sinful nature). Sinful acts
 WC> condemn us, but they are only symptoms of our root problem,
 WC> which is a sinful nature.    Sin entered the world of humanity
 WC> through one man--Adam. This refers to the historical event of
 WC> Adam's sin in the Garden of Eden.

 Who did your children inherit their sin from?  You or God?  God does not
 impute sins. We can sufficently spread them like a virus without His
 help.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 16:45:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fall.6                1/

 WC>    In what way, then, did we sin in Adam: This statement seems
 WC> to violate our concept of individual responsibility and
 WC> accountability. It does not seem fair for us to be condemned
 WC> because of our ancestor's sin. Perhaps several observations will
 WC> help us here.

 Yes.  By all means, let's dance around the truth and twist it to make us
 feel confortable.  We need another "observation" when we don't like what
 scripture says.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 16:51:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fall.6                1/

 WC> 20:5; 34:7; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 5:9), but God punishes no
 WC> one spiritually because of his father's sins (Jeremiah 31:29-30;
 WC> Ezekiel 18:2-4). The righteous son of a wicked father is not
 WC> guilty of his father's sins (Ezekiel 18:14-17).

 First you are correct in saying that "God punishes no one."   The
 consequences of sin, or wages of sin, is suffering.   If we violate
 physical law and walk in front of a moving truck we will get hurt. If we
 violate spiritual law we will likewise suffer the consequences.  God
 isn't dishing out punishment.

 Second, you should have kept reading in Ezekiel rather than taking a
 verse out of context.  You could have understood the principle of
 restoration through indemnity.  The reverse course one must follow to
 make restitutions for the sins of their ancestors :

 EZE 18:19    Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the
 father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, [and]
 hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

 Now if I wrote this you would disagree and say he was earning his
 salvation.  Why don't you give the author of Ezekiel the same
 condemnation you hurl in my direction?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 17:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fall.6                2/

 WC>    First, some teach that we inherit a sinful nature and guilt
 WC> from Adam. Under this view, we are actually guilty of Adam's
 WC> sin; God imputes Adam's sin and Adam's guilt to us. Roman
 WC> Catholics and Eastern Orthodox teach this, as well as many
 WC> Protestants, including those who believe in predestination. The
 WC> problem here is that God would condemn us apart from our
 WC> personal acts, which seems to violate basic princi- ples of
 WC> justice revealed by conscience and Scripture.

 You are right to say "it seems" because it is not reality.  You haven't
 understood that man has fallen victim of his own doing as a result of
 violating heavenly law.  God isn't punishing mankind.   Ever way you
 turn the truth comes out that you still don't have any concept of God as
 a loving parent.  Once you can understand God loves you as a parent you
 can move on to higher truth and shed the fear that God is out to get
 you.  ...and other such nonsense you have been preaching about God
 killing 85% of the worlds population.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 17:09:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Fall.6                2/

 WC>    The doctrine of the sinful nature corresponds to the
 WC> universal experience of mankind. Everyone struggles with evil
 WC> desires  actions, and habits too strong to subdue without divine
 WC> intervention. We see evidence of the inborn sinful nature in the
 WC> infant's selfish, stub- born, undisciplined temperament. No
 WC> child is born with the fruit of the Spirit, and parents must
 WC> actively teach children Christian vir- tues. On the other hand,
 WC> no child needs to be taught to covet, steal, lie, deceive, and
 WC> so on. They resort to such things automatically when it is
 WC> advantageous or convenient to do so.

 This is most unusual.  We strongly agree !


 So where did we inherit this sinful nature from?  How can we be TOTALLY
 rid of it so we don't pass it on to our own children?

 Those were the questions Rev. Moon asked Jesus Christ. And Jesus' answer
 was simple:  We inherited this sinful nature from our parents. We need
 to find True Parents ( the messiah and his bride ) and become adopted
 into their family.  If we can demonstrate a consistent faith and
 obedience as members of the one true family, we can get the blessing of
 marriage from God through Christ and connect to Christ so his nature
 will be transferred to our own children.   This is the ONLY way the
 kingdom of heaven ever has a chance to be realistically established on
 the earth.  When you understand this you can understand why Moonies are
 thought to be crazy and brainwashed.  We found the way to establish
 peace on earth. We found God's true love. We found the True Parents of
 mankind.  I promise that before eternity has ended you will find True
 Parents yourself.   I really thought I could help shorten that time.

 ROM 11:17   And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a
 wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of
 the root and fatness of the olive tree;

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 17:29:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Hebrews Read This

 TB>Are the Jews expecting the messiah to come twice ?

 WC>    You are in for a disappointment, Terry. They do not even
 WC> believe that He has come the first time.

 And they are not waiting on him to kill him so the prophecies of
 suffering servant can be fulfilled.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 22:41:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carrol
Subject    LAZARUS

 RC> If sins are only in the body, then why don't all go to heaven
 RC> when they die?

 Hey, I like that.  Any way to shorten it to fit a tag line ?

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 22:50:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Where Are God'S Grand 1/

 TB>First, you assume that Rev. Moon has explained every word in the
 TB>Bible. This is not the case.  Rev. Moon simply taught that the
 TB>will of God is to realize HIS grand children on the earth.

 WC>  That is what he taught. However, it is extra-biblical.
 WC> God does not have grandchildren. He has only children. There was
 WC> not even a word in Hebrew for grand(father/mother/son/daughter).

 Correct about the use of the word 'grand children', in 11 places the
 Bible says 'children's children' instead.  Some day God's children will
 have children and some of us will call them God's grand children even if
 you think 'children's children' is a more appropriate term.

 WC>    This is not confirmed by Scripture. God is omnipotent. He has
 WC> only to speak the word and the world would be overfilled with
 WC> "grand- children."  There is no provision in the plan of
 WC> salvation for God to have grandchildren. There is only provision
 WC> for children.

 You are making a big mistake if you don't pray about this.

 TB>So we can see how the omnipotence of God is
 WC> limited by the laws of TB>love.
 WC>    If God's omnipotence is limited then He is not omnipotent and
 WC> therefore He cannot be God.

 Another flip flop.  You posted a message a while back that said God
 could not save a person with a unrepentful spirit.  You seem to be
 forgetting your own theology.

 TB>that is why we are taught to confess and repent.

 WC>    The Bible does not teach that we are taught to confess and
 WC> repent because it is the nature of sin to remain hidden.

 Why then ?

 TB>When we look at the ministry of Jesus and realize that it conclud-
 TB>ed with only spiritual salvation we know physical salvation is
 TB>left unaccomplished.

 WC>    Not so. Jesus did a complete work. Physical salvation is
 WC> assured the believer when the church is translated (raptured) (I
 WC> Thessalonians 4:15-17).

 Why do you have to wait?

 WC>    One can assume such a thing but that does not make it
 WC> biblical. You have no scriptural basis for saying that Jesus had
 WC> a reason other than His own personal welfare to want to avoid
 WC> the suffering of Cal- vary.

 Where is this scriptural evidence that Jesus was worried about his own
 personal welfare when he prayed to let the cup pass?   You are making an
 assumption that is not supported by scripture.

 This prayer of Jesus was not a selfish or timid prayer, uttered out of
 fear of dying.  If the crucifixion had been the very way for Jesus to
 save mankind, he would gladly have died on the cross thousands of times
 over.  Jesus was beset with anxiety when he thought about his mission as
 the Messiah, which was to realize the kingdom of heaven on earth.  His
 heart was so troubled because he knew how sorrowful God would feel if
 the completion of the dispensation for salvation were delayed.  Jesus
 also foresaw the sufferings and bloodshed of his disciples and
 followers, the Christians, who would have to follow his path of
 suffering and the cross.  He also anguished over the troubled future
 that would come to the people of Israel if they rejected him. With all
 of this in mind, in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus uttered a last
 desperate prayer to God, repeatedly pleading that God let him remain on
 earth, even in those hopeless circumstances, so that he could continue
 his mission and change the hearts of the people to the point where they
 would accept him.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 23:07:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Where Are God'S Grand 2/

 TB>Where is God's glory when Satan has realized millions of grand
 TB>children and He NEVER had one ?

 WC>    You cannot support the statement that Satan has millions of
 WC> grandchildren in Scripture. He too has only children just as God
 WC> has only children.

 God never had a mature man and woman on earth that He could bless in
 marriage before 1960  (when the marriage of the Lamb took place).  There
 is no way God could have grand children before the marriage of the Lamb
 took place.  Jesus clearly said fallen man was born of fornication.
 However those who heard him said the same thing you are saying:

 "We be not born of fornication... our father is God."

 Their claims didn't change the facts then and your same claims won't
 change the facts now.  Your claim that you and I are not grand children
 of the devil is clearly an example that the nature of sin is to hide and
 try deny it.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-27-91 23:17:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Walter Copes
Subject    Worthless Covenants

 WC> TB>What level of salvation do you want?
 WC>    The Bible does not teach levels of salvation. It is sort of
 WC> like pregnancy. One is either totally pregnant or one is not
 WC> pregnant at all. One either has salvation or one does not have
 WC> salvation. There is no in between.

 Did you forget that John the Baptist is lesser than the least in the
 kingdom of heaven?  Did you forget that in my Father's house there are
 many mansions?  Did you forget that St. Paul knew a man that went to the
 'third heaven'?   How can you forget Jesus telling his followers that
 the least ( most serving ) among them would be the greatest in heaven?

 I have to agree with you that our eternal life may be likened to a
 course in college... we can pass or fail.  However some people will pass
 with better grades and when they go to the next course, or graduate,
 they will be in a greater position than those who just scraped by.  If
 you ever apply for some jobs they don't just want to know if you passed,
 they will check your grades.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-28-91 08:03:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Bernadette Mowatt
Subject    Covenant

 TB> Did you ever read that the New Covenant was the "Last Covenant" ?
 TB> Are you prepared to understand and reap the rewards of the next
 TB>covenant  God will establish with man ?

 BM> Terry, are you stating here that Jesus' Covenant/sacrifice, was
 BM> the the final and completed covenant/sacrifice?

 No, I believe at the return of Christ there will be a newer covenant
 established with man.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-28-91 08:06:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Insurmountable Difficulti

 RC> Unless you can give me a very good reason for rejecting parts of
 RC> the bible that contradict your beliefs I won't be able to
 RC> consider them.  Can you do that?
 RC> I find the bible to be truth, spirit and life.  To reject part
 RC> of it and to need an external source of supposed truth that
 RC> contradicts the bible makes
 RC> one's beliefs highly suspect, at best.

 I never would suggest you reject the scripture, only the
 misinterpretation of it.  If you can consider all scripture in light
 of the possibility  that God wants to see His grand children come into
 the world you will have a new understanding of the true meaning of much
 of the scripture.   That means He did NOT will the fall of man.  And
 Jesus came to be a bridegroom.  And the fulfillment of the return of
 Christ will have to take place through Christ coming again in the flesh.
 Since there is no scripture that says it is NOT God's will to see the
 realization of His grand children you should not be afraid to experiment
 with this idea.  I am sure that God wants grand children and that is the
 message Jesus Christ gave to Rev. Moon.  We can all get sad and grope
 because God didn't tell 'me' this first, but that is only an expression
 of the sin of jealous and pride.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-28-91 08:19:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Rick Carroll
Subject    Restore.3             2/

 TB>  You may not have to earn your salvation but incorrect
 TB> behavior can  surely cause you to lose it.

 RC> Then why, if that's true, does the christian receive
 RC> "discipline" in this life, so that he may not face the
 RC> punishment that unbelievers face?  Why don't unbelievers face
 RC> this same discipline?  Hebrews  12 5  And ye have forgotten the...

 I believe God wants all people to be saved, however we know that Jesus
 said seek and ye shall find; knock and the door shall be opened. This
 means that fallen man must take some initiative.  In any war, the battle
 line is where the generals and kings put their focus.  There is a battle
 line between God and Satan too.  And people who are closest to that line
 are more influenced by the spiritual world most of the time.  So we find
 God working to purify and pull fallen man to His side and Satan working
 to tempt and pull fallen man to his side.  I suppose a friend I had in
 college put it best...∙he liked to drink and take drugs and he said: "I
 decided to quit because I was tired of running all over the place and
 spending my money trying to locate something to get me high, but when I
 decided to quit I found my friends trying to give me the stuff.  I never
 knew so much of the stuff was around."  He continued to say that his
 experience was so real that he understood there was a Satan.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-28-91 19:00:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Daniel Osborn
Subject    Trinity Lie

 DO> I think that your acknowledgement that warfare is approved of by
 DO> the teachings
 DO> of Moon adequately demonstrates that his teachings are just as
 DO> despicable and death dealing as the rest of Christendom.

 You better think again.  I did not say that warfare is approved by the
 teachings of Rev. Moon.  Why do you guys stoop to such unfounded
 accusations when your doctrine does not hold up?  Just get a better
 doctrine and you won't have to make up such nonsense to put down others
 in hopes it will make you look better.   I once had a pretty good
 opinion of Jw's.  I have met many when I was fund raising, and even
 though almost none of them would donate to any other organization, I was
 frequently treated to food or given money with the specific instructions
 for me to buy something I needed for myself.  I surely hope your entire
 congregation has not become like the representatives I've been meeting
 in this conference.

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄

Date       12-28-91 22:24:00
From       Terry Blount
To         Jason Steck
Subject    Biblical Interpretation

 JS> Either way, the doctrine of inerrancy is at least useless since
 JS> the choice of which sections of the Bible are ignored still
 JS> remains open.

 AMEN !